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Duration: 1:22:24
00:00:05:00 - 00:00:32:05
Unknown
Hello and welcome to our program. My name is Mark Kligman. I am the Nazarian Center, interim director of the Younges and Soyra Nazarian Center for Israel Studies. The Nazarian Center is situated in the and UCLA International Institute. Our center provides academic discourse that addresses Israel's history and culture, both past and present.
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The Harry C Sigmund Distinguished Lecture in Israel Studies is a lecture series that honors the late Harry C c, a longtime Los Angeles attorney, along with UCLA and a generous supporter of the UCLA. Missouri center. The series was created through a major endowment gift for the Sigman estate, and supports public presentations by leading experts on a range of Israel related topics.
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Our program tonight will proceed as follows I will introduce our main speaker and the moderator. After the discussion, we will take your questions. Please submit your questions on the index cards that were provided as you entered, and someone will collect them. And if you did not get an index card, just raise your hand during the discussion and we'll make sure that you get an index card and make sure your questions and our featured speaker, who were very pleased to present tonight is Doctor Yossi Balan, a former Israeli politician, veteran peace negotiator and scholar.
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He served in the Israeli Knesset from 1988 to 2008 as a member of the Labor Party, and after that as leader of the Emirates Party, holding Minister of positions in the governments of Yitzhak Rabin, Shimon Peres and Aifread Barak. In 1992, as the Deputy Foreign Minister under Shimon Peres, Beilin initiated the secret backchannel negotiations that resulted in the Oslo Accords.
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He is the author of several books. His most recent book, secrets I Won't Take with Me Home War and the struggle for Peace in Israel, is forthcoming in March of this year. He is also the founder of Birthright Israel and chair of the Hillel board. Israel. Please see the program for more information on Doctor Balance. Many accomplishments. Our moderator is Professor Dover Waxman, who's in political science and is the Rosalind and Arthur Gilbert Foundation Chair of Israel Studies here at UCLA from January 2020, beginning of the pandemic through December 2024, he served as director of the Eunice and Serena Zeringue Center for Israel Studies.
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Professor Waxman's research focuses on the conflict over Israel, Palestine, Israeli politics, and foreign policy, U.S. Israel relations, American jury's relationship with Israel, Jewish politics, and anti-Semitism. He is the author of four books, including his most recent book, the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict What Everyone Needs to Know. Published an Oxford University Press in 2019. Please join me in welcoming Doctor Yossi Balan, who will speak to us tonight on the very important topic.
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Is Israeli Palestinian peace possible in the foreseeable future after the civil?
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I was invited to speak here, and I really think the center and in actual BBC. Before the war in Gaza and in the north. Before President Trump was reelected. And before we suggested the Riviera in Gaza. And I appreciate that actually we full so the very interesting developments, some of them are tragic.
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Some of them are not. And so I was invited here to speak about, other things, but I will have to refer to what happened in Israel and also in the relations between Israel and the espera in the last two years. A President Trump surprised us. This week. And they. Maybe also the Israeli prime minister was surprised by him.
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And maybe he was surprised by himself.
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But, I can subscribe to the idea that the the Gaza Strip has a reputation. I, You know, the first time I went to Gaza was after the Six Day War. It was already the beginning of the attrition war.
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And then I was sent to the north, the way a north, a camp in the country. And on the Suez Canal for a very long while. And they told me you have to, and, begin to call whatever to Gaza. And then from Gaza, you see the, the trucks going to build the figure for in the midst of the Sinai Peninsula.
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And from them you will find a car or truck or whatever to the token. Okay. I had a check rifle a from the media events on me. And then I went down from the car, the first car in Gaza. September 67th.
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Was the quiet place quite nice? And I didn't feel any problem as a alone and only, a soldier in trying to catch a truck or whatever to build for. And the. A young boy approached me. And he looked at me and said, the Sardar.
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I, I know Arabic, I, I was very good in Arabic and I didn't understand what he wanted for me. And then he looked at my shoes, my my, military shoes. And he said, that's Now, you have to understand that shining your shoes was a very important road in the Army. You had to to show every morning to your commander that everything is in place and that your shoes, clean and shining.
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You will never think about giving this role to somebody. Is your role what was to shine your shoes? And so I, I looked at him and and I say, is la la la. No. And he looked at me. And he was miserable. So I said to myself, what am I doing now? For the first time in my service, I will ask somebody else to to clean my shoes.
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No. So I took out, some money, I don't remember how much was it? And they gave it to him.
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And he was so offended. He was so offended. And I said to myself, maybe this is the future of our relations. Actually, you are doing something because you believe that it is needed. It is a must. But somebody else. Will look at you and will hate you. And you are doomed and the other side is doomed. Also. And I must admit, I must tell you that during the the Gaza War, I always remember this picture.
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It is not such a big story. Nothing happened. He didn't take the money.
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I found a truck which took me to build for.
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But the conflict is there. And who knows what happened to this guy. But the feeling was that it's a kind of a dead end. You are doing this. You know you are doing this now. And you must. You must break it. You must get out of it if you really want to leave. I mean, this is my lesson.
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And I remember the this was my lesson also in 67.
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Now, the idea of Trump. Is a nice idea, but it will never happen.
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I am a spoiler today, but it it will never happen. This it that is very clear. I'm not sure whether he himself thinks that it will happen. Maybe after Mexico is paying for the wall or something like this. So this would be a. A line of of issues that should be fulfilled. But the problem is that it is not just a joke.
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I mean, the jokes about it are everywhere in the world, in Israel especially. I'm sure that in the Arab world. But it is not a joke. Why isn't it a joke? Because. The main issue in our conflict. Is territory. Yes, there are other issues. From what, to Jerusalem to the refugees to security.
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But first and foremost, it is land. It is territory. I believe that if you solve the issue of territory, you actually solve the problem. You have to you will have to to deal with other issues. But this is the main one because since 1882. A year after the murder of the czar Alexander the Second.
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The our whole story began. 2.5 million Jews left East Europe. Most of them went to the United States. Those who were not allowed to the United States, went to other neighboring countries. Until about the beginning of the second of the First World War, and especially until 2000, and in 1924. Then it ended. Actually. Now, the Arabs who lived in Palestine, so it died of Jews.
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Who are coming to replace them.
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This was the story to replace them. And the Jews who went there did not try to console them, to tell them, no, this is not the case. So you have enough room for all of us. But what they did is that they bought the land. And unlike the rich Arabs who lived mainly in Beirut and bought the land in the middle of the 19th century, they wanted to remain there and to to cultivate the land themselves.
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The Arabs did not understand. What what are they doing? I mean, you buy land and you get something for that percentage of the products or whatever. But we remained there. They couldn't understand how one buys land and one by himself or herself to work there. And they understood that actually. We came there in order to replace them. And that is our story until this very moment.
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I mean, nothing helped. Even if we try to say, no, this is not the case. We we live side by side in whatever deep there. And one can understand it. The feel is that there is a tide of Jews who came, the imperialists, colonial. Please, whatever. Untrue as it was, some of them are claiming that they came because of the Bible, but they don't have anything more than that.
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And they want us to go there. And then you have those people who said the Arabs have 22 countries. They should go there. Why here? And so on and so forth. And out of the blue comes the American president himself and says, I have a nice idea for you. You should all leave because it can be a very nice review.
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The like the French one.
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And is so sure that is going to happen that you say eventually they will agree. Now. In the Arab world they then don't take it easy and the Palestinians are taking it very seriously. And my I am worried that it might I hope I'm wrong. It might contribute to violence. If then the stand the only way to deal with it.
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Is to show force. The only only language in the Middle East. This is power in force and whatever. And the. That is why it is so problematic. I'm sure that it will not happen.
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But I'm not sure that it doesn't have ramifications for. And the you know, I'm not speaking about formalities. The international law where it is not in the 19th century.
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Philippines, Cuba. In other things, there is international law.
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And there is the the Oslo agreement, signed by both sides, but also by by witnesses, by the Americans, which say very clearly that Gaza and the West Bank are one unit of the Palestinian entity. If Israel left Gaza unilaterally. Okay. But to take it, you have at least to ask the Palestinian only legitimate regime, which is the PLO, to pick the phone and to talk to a president, Mahmoud Abbas and to ask him, hey, yeah, do you have anything against me taking the Gaza Strip and making out of it the Riviera?
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It's not a joke. I mean, he's the owner. That Hamas took it from him by very, very aggressive force. The people who live in Gaza get their identity cards from Ramallah. Does the president know that?
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No. He is talking to Egypt and to Jordan. And I think that. He did not take into account all the ramifications. You know, if you talk to the Jordanian leadership, if you talk to the King Abdullah, if you talk to his father, King Hussein, the biggest fear is that something bad will happen in the West Bank. And as a result of it, it died of Palestinians will run away to the other side, to the other bank of the Jordan River.
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And sometimes, I mean, when I had the. Opportunity to talk to the to the to the King and to the we son, the king today. Or to Prince Hassan? I would say to them, I mean, why do you think that? I mean, I'm with you. I'm against what happened. But why do you think that it will have a direct impact on immigrant emigration to to Jordan?
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You can't convince them. I remember a meeting with King Abdullah.
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During the Second Intifada. And he said to me, Yossi, you don't understand what it means for us. It is not just another Arab country which identifies with the Palestinians. Not at all. This is not the case. On top of it, there is something else. Whenever something bad happens in the West Bank, whenever Palestinians are killed.
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You have people who are mourning for them on the other side of the bank of the river. It is our problem. It is families.
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And I think that.
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What was done last in the last days is really very problematic. Communities. The first my first reaction, I must admit, was. I laughed. But then I said, are you an idiot? I mean, what are you laughing about? Don't you understand what is happening? It is the American president.
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Now, if you ask me what should happen, what can happen? What is realistic?
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I think that the most important thing.
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Is to prevent a situation where the oil by Hamas is ruling Gaza.
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Besides the releasing of all the a kidnaped and the hostages, and that I hope it will happen now, it will be very difficult to stop it artificially. If somebody wants to stop it.
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But it is not killing all the Hamas warriors and or something like that, because it is really far from being realistic. What is realistic is that they will not hold Gaza. For me, when I begin the Oslo process, one of the main reasons. Was that I followed what was happening with Hamas since the first Intifada. They were seen by the younger generation in Palestine as honest people.
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Which understood the people, which helped pull people which believed in the UN. And that was the main issue for them. While the PLO was already seen as corrupt lives in Tunis, in hotels it's always hotels, hotels and the cannot be compared to the purity of Hamas. And since I read the Hamas covenant and I began to understand or not began, I understood what they wanted.
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I understood one thing. You have two groups in Palestine, at least one became more pragmatic, change its mind. Officially in November 1988, and another wanted just to destroy Israel and to control.
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And was not ready to any kind of a compromise. The only the only way for them now with Iran, although their ideological or religious differences. But a but the main issue is to get rid of Israel is a doesn't have the right to exist, and the disappearance of Israel is the is the main issue. If I have to choose between a pragmatic group which use terrorism.
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And a fanatic religious group which wants to kill me, I know who to choose.
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And this was one of the reasons for, for me at least, to go for the Oslo process before the Palestinian history. It will be totally, almost supportive of the of Hamas. So the way I mean, they they won the elections and they were not recognized. The mistake was not that they were not recognized. The mistake was that they were allowed to run for the elections in 2006.
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And I went to the show and I said, we don't allow them. It is your right not to allow Hamas to run for the elections because it is written in the interim agreement.
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That there is a chapter about elections in Palestine, and it is written that people who are inside terrorism cannot run for elections as groups and individuals. They should not run in. President Bush 43. Was the one who convinced so on why not to do it? And when I came to show them. And I led then a party which gave him the majority.
00:27:39:12 - 00:27:54:06
I was out of the government. I didn't want to join the government, but we will giving him a safety net in order to leave Gaza. Although I was so much against leaving Gaza unilaterally.
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And he said to me, you'll see. I appreciate so much of the dedication for peace. He was very nice when he wanted. And but there is one difference between us. I said, what is the difference is that? You trust the Arabs? I don't trust them. They are all the same. I said, I do. You are my Prime Minister.
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I do the same thing that all the Jews are the same.
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And they didn't answer this question. But this is what he said. This is what he said. And I think that what is happening today, at least from the point of view of the Reich, in Israel, I mean, Netanyahu said, I don't want in Gaza neither Hamas nor Abbas.
00:29:01:22 - 00:29:31:03
Well, it rhymes. But what do you mean by that? If Hamas is like like Mahmoud Abbas can compare between them? Believe me, I met Abbas. Then they said.
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He likes Hamas less than Bibi, I.
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Think it for me. But to say that all the Arabs are the same. All the Jews are the same. All the kids are the same. All the girls are the same. All men all the same. You know, it is really a little bit kindergarten or kind of since there is something in it, but it is wrong. People say, you know, after all is right.
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All the Jews are the same. We know what they want. I we know everything. I am going to back to the question of what to do to prevent Hamas from being the governing power in Gaza.
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And how can it be done? The. Some of the Gulf states are ready to put boots on the ground after years, generations that they did not want to do, that they are ready to put boots on the ground and they are ready to invest money in rebuilding Gaza. Their involvement is vital to save Gaza. They will not until Gaza.
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If Israel is not suggesting a political horizon to the Palestinians in the shape of the two state solution.
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On the on the other side, there is the. Then there are the Palestinians and the PLO. You know. And I can tell you very clearly, I don't know whether it is possible, whether it is feasible, but it is easy. I know that it is not easy. But President Abbas told me that he is ready to send forces to the Gaza Strip.
00:31:52:18 - 00:32:28:13
And, you know. This is this combination. And and on the other end, I met with day with the foreign minister of the of the Emirates, and he said, I will not enter without the blessing of the Palestinian leadership of the PLO or the all the Palestinian Authority for that matter. So you have the whole solution that. They there is an Israeli promise for the future.
00:32:28:14 - 00:32:58:20
Now, unlike the people like Ben-Gurion's moderates, which I mean, this is the, in my view, the biggest crime of Netanyahu that he allowed them to be part of, of any government in Israel, it should have never happened, never happened. And he is not one of them. He is a rightist. He's Republican, whatever you can say. But he is not.
00:32:58:20 - 00:33:41:09
Ben-Gvir is not. Which. He needed them politically and decided to take a step, which is he promised just two years earlier. If you know, never to put them in his government in any role on camera. So he he supported the two state solution since, 2009. In his value line speech, he went to New York and appeared in the UN General Assembly and supported the two state solution.
00:33:41:11 - 00:34:27:14
And it is not something impossible for him. And he negotiated in with with the Kerry, with John Kerry in 2013 and 14 on a two state solution. So for Netanyahu, at least personally, it's not is not something which he cannot even except for for the future, for the far future or whatever. I think that if President Trump really wants to change that the situation, it is not a revealing Gaza, and it is not a suggestion that 2 million people will leave Gaza.
00:34:27:14 - 00:35:07:16
It will not happen. It is allowing those Arab countries which are ready to enter Gaza and to help many, many the the Gaza Strip for a while, a year or two. Maybe three. Not more than that. They are renting. And it is not that I read about it or what I'm talking to them. So there is really no reason why not to do that.
00:35:07:17 - 00:35:33:20
And the situation, I mean, we are not doomed to remain in Gaza for an. But what is happening now is is even worse that Hamas if you see them when, when they it's changing. It's changing. You know, the people in the media, it appears, is an exchange of prisoners. I mean, it is crazy to call it like that.
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It is exchange of old people and babies, if they are still alive. But for me.
00:35:42:23 - 00:35:53:09
With we terrorists, I mean, this is what is happening, but we cannot say the whole sentence. So it is
00:35:53:09 - 00:36:13:23
a, an exchange of of prisoners, but that you see how it was organized and how the Hamas appeared there with all the, flags. So they, of course, suffered a serious blow, but they are still there, and they want to remain there.
00:36:14:01 - 00:36:52:05
And if that is what is what we are getting after such a long war, the longest war of Israel with the Arabs, it will be a real a real defeat for us. Although the fact that practically we won the war. But who are we? We are the the strongest military power in the region to win this war is not something which was not expected or possible or whatever.
00:36:52:07 - 00:37:23:17
But when you are fighting a terrorist organization, this think that some of them are still alive. It is a victory. And I think that here it is very important to create a situation will be they will not continue in governing Gaza. And if we have an inter Arab regime for a while, with the blessing and participation of the Palestinian Authority.
00:37:23:19 - 00:38:06:06
I think that it will change the whole situation. And they bring us to to a situation in which we can really live together. But then there is a question is it possible to make peace with the Palestinians now, when if you compare what happened in 93 after signing the Oslo agreement agreement and what is happening today with the settlements they increased, the number of the settlers increased from 90,000 to 5 to half a million.
00:38:06:08 - 00:38:22:08
And the settlers are saying, okay, we won. You lost. You can never have a two state solution with with so many settlements.
00:38:22:10 - 00:39:10:16
I believe that this understanding penetrating that penetrated the, the the thoughts of the Israeli decision makers, even in the center, the center left you with people saying, you know, we really wanted to have a two state solution. We believed. In such a solution that you know it, all these settlements, it's over. And this is one of the reasons it is the main reason for the idea that he was saying he and myself developed in the last years, and that is an Israeli-Palestinian confederation.
00:39:10:18 - 00:39:40:18
The idea is to have on the two state solution, an umbrella of the Confederation. Now, if you are searching in the lexicon for a confederation which exists today, you will find no one. There are some countries which call themselves confederations like Canada and Switzerland, but they are federations.
00:39:40:20 - 00:40:15:06
And they the last confederation was in former Yugoslavia. And that there is one confederation which doesn't call it like that, and that is the European Union, so that we are following the the example of the of the European Union by building a structure of two states with an opening for at least a third one, which is a Jordan.
00:40:15:08 - 00:41:07:13
But that is optional. But we are speaking about it. Two states which are fully independent and fully sovereign. Now. Under such an umbrella, it would be possible to go for the following solution. Telling the the settlers. That those of them who will remain in the Palestinian future state, and that will be a minority of the 500,000, because most of the settlers, as you know, live very close to the old Green Line between Israel and Jordan, mainly settlements like.
00:41:07:15 - 00:42:00:16
And they may be moved in the crucial. Most of the settlers move the. So there will be about 170,000 settlers on the other side of the the border. The way we envisage the future border now, they will be allowed either to leave the settlements and to get compensation and to go to southern Israel or to remain while they are under the Palestinian state as citizens of Israel and the residents of Palestine.
00:42:00:18 - 00:42:51:07
But in the same time, the same number of Palestinians, Palestinian citizens will be allowed to Israel as permanent residents of Palestine and of Israel and and citizens of Palestine. So there will be full symmetry between the two sides. If many of the settlers will oppose the idea of becoming residents of the Palestinian state, then the the quota of the will be lower, and this will be also the quota for the Palestinians, but it will not be ongoing after three years.
00:42:51:09 - 00:43:21:14
Once we decide the number of the Israelis who want to remain in Palestine, this will be the number of the Palestinians who will be allowed to live in Israel. If later on, people leave it, it will not be counted. Now there is a booklet. If you search for it, the, you will get you will find the the Israeli-Palestinian Confederation.
00:43:21:16 - 00:43:58:13
And they you will see the details, including a joint narrative which had never been written before about the Israeli-Palestinian, story, and that we added to it, regretfully, the story of the last war. By the way, it is not so difficult to write together the story. You see, both sides see the same events in a different way. But it doesn't mean that you really are fighting about the effects.
00:43:58:15 - 00:44:38:15
The bottom line is the following. On the one hand, we have now to solve the issue of Gaza, we have we have factors which are ready to help solve it, each of them from their own interests. Of course, Israel will have to fully leave the Gaza Strip. We don't have to remain the and the. And that can be done with the help of the United States and other countries.
00:44:38:17 - 00:45:08:01
About the negotiations. The main obstacle, the main obstacle is the issue of the settlements. And that can so that can be solved in the way that I described right now. And the. The fact that it was agreed upon by a group of Israelis in the group of Palestinians, of course, doesn't mean that all the Palestinians will upload it.
00:45:08:01 - 00:45:37:12
And all the Israelis with uploaded, but at least it is not an Israeli idea or the Palestinians idea, which is always suspicious in the. I believe that if there is a Prime minister and I'm not excluding the current prime minister of Israel, who can who is ready to go for something like that for negotiations with the Palestinians now?
00:45:37:14 - 00:46:17:10
It will be possible to continue the the peace process. And the if I'm speaking about the American president, he should call in such a situation. The Israeli leaders of the opposition and tell them to support Netanyahu to when he goes this way. It's difficult for me to say, believe me. I'm not sure whether Netanyahu is the man of peace.
00:46:17:12 - 00:46:52:21
But I know that he is an opportunist. And sometimes it is important that people like that are meeting opportunities and trying to use them. He did it in the past. He is even doing it now in Gaza. Against all his promises to remain for ever in this area. The other area is leaving Gaza. He wrote in his books, in his book A Place Under the Sun or something like that.
00:46:52:21 - 00:47:19:08
So many things against, exchange of prisoners or something that is never we should do it. And of course, he did it more than others. So he is an opportunist. And sometimes it is the, the negative, the connotation. It can also be a positive connotation.
00:47:19:10 - 00:47:52:18
I'm not sure about what I'm saying. I'm not sure. But. And maybe my my optimism, is overshadowing some thoughts of the reality. I also agree that in most cases, the pessimists are right. In most of the cases that I met, they said, you can never do that. They can not do it. Yeah. And they know something about life.
00:47:52:20 - 00:48:28:10
And most of our experiences is they our failures. So it is it is quite they reasonable to say that the best the pessimists are right. That without the optimists there would be no world. And if you are a pessimist, you'll give up in advance. You are an optimist. You are fighting for what you believe. That's what we should do.
00:48:28:12 - 00:48:35:17
Thank you.
00:48:35:17 - 00:48:48:21
First of all, I am so happy that you are here at UCLA. This has been a long time coming, as you said, a few years. So I'm, I'm it's wonderful to be able to be with you this evening.
00:48:48:23 - 00:49:22:20
And to hear you, and I want you to pick up, first of all, with what you just mentioned about optimism, because one of the things I think, that is most striking about your political career, when you think thematically is your determined optimism, your commitment to peace, and the creative ways in which you've come and to try to promote that, whether it was through the Oslo peace process or more recently, through the Confederation, proposal, through the Balian Abu Mazen agreement.
00:49:22:22 - 00:49:46:21
And I'm just wondering, as somewhat of a pessimist myself, where does that optimism come from? When do you think, because, you know, the landscape, the political landscape, you, you know, the personalities, you know Netanyahu, you know Abbas, where do you think you draw that, that optimism.
00:49:46:23 - 00:50:26:03
You know, it's not a matter that I eat garlic every day or something, although it is recommended. But but the I found myself when I recognize myself as an optimist, the the point is, it took me that it took time to understand it. For me, it's all for all of us. Recognizing ourselves is is a long process. And and I ask myself, maybe you all just foolish.
00:50:26:05 - 00:51:02:08
And foolish person. To be optimistic is not a problem. And of course, I don't exclude this possibility. I'm not objective enough to exclude it. But I think that the. There is the joke that the a person, an optimist is some somebody who doesn't buy the lottery ticket and is, and doesn't understand why he lost. He didn't they didn't get any money.
00:51:02:10 - 00:51:40:22
But the point is that I, in my life experience, felt that optimism is when you believe that if the right things are done, you can achieve something. Optimist is not that that somebody who believes that everything will be in order. Just time will it will heal and everything. And you know, in the future, don't worry. No, this is really stupid.
00:51:41:00 - 00:52:20:11
I think that a more sober optimist is saying to himself, to yourself that there are there is a list of things that have to take place. Some of them are not simple. And aching. And there is a price to pay. But if you do these things, you may succeed. And, you know, many, many ideas did not that I raised in the past.
00:52:20:12 - 00:52:29:18
I wrote in the past about did not the did not happen. It not materialized.
00:52:29:19 - 00:53:04:23
So I am not a magician, and I don't think that everything that that I want can be achieved. I don't accept it that my people. Cannot have peace. It's too much. After the Holocaust, of the other things to say to myself that my people cannot have peace, that it is the.
00:53:05:01 - 00:53:38:13
It is a kind of a must. That my children, my grandchildren, will serving in the Army for a long time now that my granddaughter is ending herself, is. And I remember myself in Gaza at the age of eight, 19, with this poor guy who wanted to show my my shoes. We are still there in Gaza, in the same territories, in the same places, with the same problems.
00:53:38:15 - 00:54:15:11
And some, some, some people like, like they they smiled. The Jewish power is telling us that we are doomed to live on our soul forever. Who are you to tell me? To tell me something like that? I have no intention to live forever on my soul. If I have to fight. I fought in four walls.
00:54:15:13 - 00:54:30:22
Okay, no other option. But I believe that there is another option for the Palestinians and for the Israelis. And we are not to do it because. And maybe I'm wrong.
00:54:31:00 - 00:55:02:04
So it seems today, and particularly in the wake of October the 7th, but really going back some time now that fewer and fewer Israelis and Palestinians believe in the possibility of peace, that there is really very little constituency any longer that exists. So how can you how do what how does one reach out and persuade Israelis who have, for the most part, abandoned hope and peace?
00:55:02:04 - 00:55:30:14
I mean, but have become convinced that Israel must live by the sword forever? How do you convince them that peace is possible and also because it's no less true on the Palestinian side, that that that Israeli, that Palestinians who have also concluded that peace is impossible. How do you change that? Well, what is the path to actually building, rebuilding a constituency for peace that no longer exists?
00:55:30:16 - 00:55:36:21
You know, I'm a great believer of education for peace.
00:55:36:23 - 00:55:56:13
Meetings. People to people. Seminars. Youngsters. Although people understanding that the other side doesn't have horns and that we are human beings, both Israelis, Palestinians, adults.
00:55:56:15 - 00:56:09:06
But my expectations are not do and please don't tell it to anybody.
00:56:09:08 - 00:56:44:10
I am also a great believer of the top down. It is important to have both with people who believe in peace, who hope for peace. But if I look for backward, there will more than 70% in Israel against withdrawal from the Sinai Peninsula. Before we sign the agreement, and 72% support it after we signed the agreement, what actually happened?
00:56:44:12 - 00:56:50:23
This situation?
00:56:51:00 - 00:57:33:15
No. What happened is that there was a prime minister in Israel, Menachem Begin, who for me had been there was then someone. And he made peace with Egypt because of whatever. And people change their minds. And then also. I don't remember exactly, but the numbers were more than 100% for sure. Of people who were against any contacts with the PLO before Oslo.
00:57:33:17 - 00:57:38:07
And after Oslo.
00:57:38:09 - 00:58:02:18
When people were asked about negotiations with the PLO, there was a big majority, you know, in the cabinet meeting which which ratified Oslo. We are in September 93rd, before the signing ceremony.
00:58:02:20 - 00:58:21:12
And I participated and, as an observer, I was a permanent observer in the in the cabin in the cabinet because I was a deputy minister, not a minister. Then.
00:58:21:14 - 00:59:04:13
And I, I looked at the people and the ministers, and it was a center left, a cabinet. It was on it was label a marriage and chess shares. Before we left the government. And I looked at the faces of the, of the ministers, and I remember how many of them. Well against any any idea of peace with the people.
00:59:04:15 - 00:59:20:00
And when I've been asked me whether you would like to say something, I said to him, no, I don't have anything to say. I wanted to see the votes.
00:59:20:02 - 01:00:02:06
No, but the was against to abstain. All the others supported. The top down is not only between the government or the Parliament and the people. If the Prime Minister in Israel is going to a certain direction, there is a very good chance that the ministers will follow him and then the coalition members and then the activists and then the people.
01:00:02:08 - 01:00:40:00
You need a brave decision maker, a brave. Prime minister in that case, who is ready to go for peace? You. It's it's almost tragic for me to say, because you see how much it depends on one person in a democracy. But one person, in a way, as you see today in the United States, one person is such an impact on the whole system.
01:00:40:02 - 01:00:51:22
And the question is whether this person is ready to risk his life all his life.
01:00:52:00 - 01:01:25:05
You know, I can I can tell you something about it, I met with President Clinton immediately after the King David talks in 2008, and he told me at length and what happened then there in in a in Camp David, from his point of view, he criticized it, but he criticized much more as Arafat.
01:01:25:07 - 01:01:49:02
And they he said at the certain moment we gave de the PLO delegation a draft. And I asked the referred to meet with me at night to tell me what is now the reaction to our draft.
01:01:49:04 - 01:02:10:18
Arafat came to him and said, Mr. President, if you come, if you, if they insist on this paper and I accept it, you will come to my funeral.
01:02:10:20 - 01:02:47:16
I say to the president, and what did you answer him? And he smiled and said, you see, what could they see? Would you say something else? I said, yes. I said, what would you say? I said, so what? And so what? The view is that the, waiting for you are more important for you than changing history, changing the region.
01:02:47:18 - 01:03:21:11
You must have somebody who is taking into account it's very personal. We all want to leave. But if that issue is so important for you, you must understand that saying you will come to my funeral is not an answer. So we have a lot of great questions that have come in from, from everybody in the audience. I will try to get, to, as many of them as I can.
01:03:21:11 - 01:03:51:00
I won't ask any more of my own, because there are so many good questions here. And I want to start mentioned, Oslo. So question is come in. Looking back at Oslo about the Oslo peace process, was it in your view, do you think it was a mistake not to reach for or attempt a comprehensive agreement, say, in 92 when you when you negotiated the Oslo Accords as opposed to the more peace by pill peace, process?
01:03:51:00 - 01:03:55:04
And I will just add to that, if I may.
01:03:55:06 - 01:04:19:13
Reflect on what was what do you regret, if anything, about that process? Was it this the the not going to a comprehensive agreement sooner, was it, not withdrawing settlers from Hebron after when do you look back on that? I think if we'd have done this differently, maybe there would have been a different outcome.
01:04:19:15 - 01:04:49:08
At a certain moment in the Oslo talks, we came to the conclusion that we have about, and it was quite early in the process. The whole process took just eight months, you know, it was not years when we went into it. It looks to us that how come we don't end then about the old retrospectively, only eight months.
01:04:49:10 - 01:05:27:16
And we understood that the other side was very serious. They already understood who were the behind the the negotiators. We understood who will, who will behind them. And it was the highest echelon. In the, we had a, a group of full which met at least once a week at the Rabin's office. It was Rabin himself. It was Paris.
01:05:27:18 - 01:06:09:14
It was myself. And it was a delegate advisor here. Jail. And we conducted the talks. The will. Very interesting. Ideas and differences. No notes were taken. And then, as you know, it was kept a secret for quite a long while, a relatively. And it wasn't because from being, because, no, he didn't allow anybody, including his military advisor to join the talks.
01:06:09:16 - 01:06:34:11
But the prize is that there is not there are no notes. So, At a certain moment, I, I came to to the meeting, but, the other two were not there were not in Israel. So I had a long discussion which would be.
01:06:34:13 - 01:07:11:09
And I said to him, it's we have a chance the day it's a meeting of the of this stuff. The Cold War is over. The PLO is not backed by the Russian. And, the AP and all, which changed its mind in November 88th. And is ready to recognize Israel. You have an American president who has no history in foreign affairs and would like to have an achievement.
01:07:11:11 - 01:07:39:23
And we are giving it to him on the silver plate. And we have you. You promised in your campaign to have an agreement with the Palestinians in 6 to 9 months. It was very, very concrete. He went from one place to another in 92 during the campaign. And that was his his message.
01:07:40:01 - 01:07:47:09
Let's go for the permanent agreement. We can do it.
01:07:47:11 - 01:08:28:01
And he said, it is it's impossible. And he he mentioned to two reasons. One was that if we go for a permanent agreement now, it fell. The Palestinian may think that since we had some requests or demands that they we could not achieve from them, there is no reason to renew any, any talks about the permanent agreement in the in the future.
01:08:28:03 - 01:09:01:16
And there would be no interim and no permanent agreement. And I want an agreement. And now. The other thing was the following one. He said we are in the midst of the Madrid conference process. Madrid was based on the Camp David Accords of 78 Begin-sadat counter.
01:09:01:18 - 01:09:39:11
And then the they they created the formula of an interim agreement five months, five years, and then, there will be a permanent two together. It's a permanent agreement which was not mentioned. What kind of a permanent agreement? If I know and this is the a part of the invitations, to the Madrid conference in October, 28 and 91.
01:09:39:13 - 01:10:14:21
And that was Baker. If we are now after, keeping the Americans in the dark about what happened in Oslo without giving them any draft and any any information about it, we come and and tell them, forget about Madrid, forget about the invitation of Baker. We have now something else they may tell us. Okay. We were not, with you from the beginning.
01:10:14:21 - 01:10:47:12
And don't ask us to vote to support every. Effort, as they say in Arabic. Michigan's, the do all I think about. So let's keep go on with the interim. And if you you finish it, it will be a huge achievement that was done. So for me, I don't know whether I convinced you, but he did not convince me.
01:10:47:14 - 01:11:22:19
I think that it was a mistake. It is. I mean, it was a mistake, which is understandable. And they I believe that had we not given five years to both extremists to torpedo, bow, to torpedo, and to thwart the assault, the whole picture could, could have been very different. Again, I'm not sure about it because this is the option which was not taken.
01:11:22:21 - 01:11:55:21
And maybe I'm wrong again, but I thought that we should use the opportunity because you don't have too many opportunities like this in life. So, we have a question, about Palestinian leadership. And you, you talked about Netanyahu has been an opportunist as well, and who may potentially be willing to accept an agreement. But many people wonder about the Palestinian leadership.
01:11:55:21 - 01:12:18:04
And, you know, clearly Hamas are not like the, to accept an agreement anytime soon. And and as you said, very, very clearly, they should not be in office. So the question is, you know, Abu Mazen, Mahmoud Abbas is in the 20th year of his four year term. He's I think, in his late 80s now he will be 90 in November.
01:12:18:06 - 01:13:01:18
You know, him there is I mean, after Abbas what's what's next? I mean, is there a Palestinian leader? Abbas himself may not have the legitimacy any longer or even the ability or the willingness, but is the Palestinian leader who is prepared, who would be willing to accept such an agreement and who might not be? First of all, Abbas is a leader who believes in peace with Israel, in the advantages of neighborhood with Israel and if he signs an agreement, the whole world will explode and accept the Arab world and the world at large is not strong.
01:13:01:20 - 01:13:22:03
And unlike all of us, he is not becoming younger. But he is the one who is the. And the path of pragmatism is, is to to face reality and to ask ourselves.
01:13:22:05 - 01:13:36:04
Why should we wait? Especially when he tells us that his father died at the age of 103.
01:13:36:06 - 01:14:05:19
Now, about the successor. You. The. The answer should not surprise you. There is one person. One person who is very, very, very popular. Has been so for years and years. Is.
01:14:05:21 - 01:14:23:23
Ready. Is pragmatic. Is ready to make peace. He believes in the two state solution, speaks Hebrew. And he made his doctorate in. Please. His name is Marwan Barghouti.
01:14:24:00 - 01:15:02:19
He was a terrorist. But the heads of the in judicial group which judge him when she retired and she was asked what was her biggest mistake, do you think that we judge team in civil court, in a civil court, it was a mistake. We didn't have to do that. He did not cooperate. He did not defend himself. He said, I am a union member of parliament.
01:15:02:21 - 01:15:16:22
I don't think that they he could be exonerated. I think that he was he is to be blamed for the Second Intifada.
01:15:17:00 - 01:15:32:23
And if you have elections in Palestine tomorrow, he will be the winner. So to say that they don't have a younger generation, he's in 63.
01:15:33:01 - 01:16:02:22
For me it is young, but. To say that there is no younger generation there. He is not the only one that is by far the only one who for sure is going to be a president in the early next year. So I and I hope that the government of the day, he has already so many years in prison, so that he will not a.
01:16:03:00 - 01:16:34:23
We cannot say that he was not punished. You was punished. Maybe not enough, but we know that sometimes you have to negotiate with the former. Those I don't like it. I know him well. I remember when we used to meet. And he brought with him a group of, say, friends. And I was with my advisers.
01:16:35:01 - 01:16:39:13
He would.
01:16:39:15 - 01:17:16:13
He counted the youth of all of them together and said, in this room you have 125 years of prison. This is the it resembles, you may say, unfairly, our pride of service in the army. It's quite, quite bad. And I didn't like it. I remember these moments. Every every meeting begin with counting the use of the participants. So this is him.
01:17:16:15 - 01:17:38:09
He believed at a certain moment that it was the right thing to use the term after also. And they I couldn't forgive him. We didn't speak. We have not spoken since then.
01:17:38:11 - 01:18:01:03
But I found myself, before he was arrested, the arguing with him on TV, on the BBC or the CNN or whatever state it was possible. And they I said to him, my what? Why are you doing it? What are you going to achieve by day?
01:18:01:05 - 01:18:42:01
Okay. It happened. This is the case. It's not simple. We can speak about corruption. We can speak about terrorism. We can speak about many things. But we are not in a situation to choose the enemy or to choose the interlocutor. There are people there who are pragmatic enough, charismatic enough, believes in peace, with whom we want to speak, those who don't want to speak can always find something about the other side, because there are many.
01:18:42:03 - 01:19:17:06
There are many. So I've been told we had just time. Unfortunately, for one more question, I just make a quick, note in response to what you were saying about Marwan Barghouti, that for those of you who don't know his, it's currently serving, I think, ten life sentences. But interestingly, he I believe and correct me if I'm wrong, is high up on the list that Hamas is demanding to be released in the next round, which is interesting because, in other words, Hamas are insisting that Marwan Barghouti, who would beat any Hamas leader in an election, be released.
01:19:17:06 - 01:19:39:15
And that is currently. So I think I think as far as I know, that's not something that, this year he's willing to commit to precisely because that could put them pressure on, for negotiations. But it's an interesting that he may be his name is number one on the list of demands for the next round, because there is nothing more popular than that.
01:19:39:15 - 01:20:05:12
I mean, for Hamas, if they believe that if they demand to release Marwan, they will strengthen their position in the Arabs in the Palestinian street. And they may be right. So we talked about Palestinian leadership. And as the final question, came in about Israelis, that's the easy part. And so the question is, you know, you've talked about Netanyahu.
01:20:05:14 - 01:20:28:11
Who do you see as the best hope for new leadership in Israel and that kind of person? Netanyahu I mean, you know, maybe the Golan may be Lapid. What do you see the future? Because a lot of people today are feeling that, you know, Netanyahu has a has a kind of a stranglehold on the Israeli political system.
01:20:28:11 - 01:21:08:12
And it's hard to imagine anybody emerging under his shadow. Well, you have today leaders from the center left who are very reasonable people and and the any of them, for me is okay. I mean, I, you know, the Benny Gantz and also the leader of my party, you go along. I mean, I think that he is the combination of a former military commander and somebody who believes in peace but believes in insecurity.
01:21:08:14 - 01:21:29:07
And he is quite popular. And the party has about 13 seats in the Knesset, according to the polls. And and so you have a gallery of people who are, you know.
01:21:29:09 - 01:21:55:12
Well, I will not say it. I will not say. But who can be prime ministers and good ones, by the way, you, Lapid was the prime minister for short. Like, but it was very good. So if he returns, I will be. I will be happy and. But but really, any one of them. I'm not referring to Bennett.
01:21:55:12 - 01:22:19:00
Bennett is the extreme right. Is a nice person. That's. But he's the extreme right. He's against the two state solution is against any contacts with the and with the Palestinian Authority. And with all due respect, I wouldn't like to see somebody like him as my Prime minister. Well, I could ask many more questions and there are more, but I unfortunately, I'm out of time.
01:22:19:00 - 01:22:24:11
So I want to thank you and thank the audience and hand over, now to all of us.