Global Civil Society and China: Challenges and Prospects

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Siyue Lena Wang - UCLA Asia Pacific Center:  

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Welcome. I'm just waiting for a couple more 

seconds, as folks are trickling in right now.

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Siyue Lena Wang - UCLA Asia Pacific Center: 

Alright, I think we can get started.

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Siyue Lena Wang - UCLA Asia Pacific Center: 

Good afternoon and good evening from the East  

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coast and good morning from Asia. Welcome to 

the Ucla Asia Pacific Center. Global Chinese

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Siyue Lena Wang - UCLA Asia Pacific Center: 

philanthropy lecture on global civil Society and  

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China Challenges and Perspectives, by Professor 

Anthony Spires from the University of Melbourne,  

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Australia. My name is Siyue Lena Wang. I'm a 

graduate student researcher with the Ucla Asia  

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Pacific Center. Myself, I am a PhD Candidate 

at the School of Education here at Ucla.

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Siyue Lena Wang - UCLA Asia 

Pacific Center: Before we  

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start I would like to say a few words 

about the Ucla Asia Pacific Center.

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Siyue Lena Wang - UCLA Asia Pacific Center: 

So can we go to the next slides? Yes,  

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thank you. Currently, The center is led by the 

interim Director Andrea Goldman. Our center  

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promotes greater knowledge and understanding 

of Asia and the Pacific region on campus and  

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in the community through innovative research 

teaching public programs, such as the GCP  

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programs. I know many of you are in our programs 

today and the international collaborations

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Siyue Lena Wang - UCLA Asia Pacific Center: we 

focus on inter-asia and trans-pacific connections  

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from historical, contemporary and comparative 

perspectives. We encourage interdisciplinary  

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work on cross-border and supranational issues 

on language and culture, politics, economic  

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economy and society and the sustainability 

in the ongoing process of globalization.

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Siyue Lena Wang - UCLA Asia Pacific Center: 

Our center also runs Taiwan study program,  

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the program on Central Asia, the global 

Chinese philanthropy research and training  

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program which led to this today's lecture, and 

we also serve as a national resource center,  

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supported by the US. Department of 

Education, title 9, title 6. Grant.

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Siyue Lena Wang - UCLA Asia Pacific 

Center: Our center also administers  

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various fellowships and small grants, 

including US. Department of education,  

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title Vi. Foreign language and Area study 

Fellowships, Taiwan study fellowships and  

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research travel grants a few other awards 

on East Asian studies. I know some of you  

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are also our postdocs and awardees, who 

are also in the lecture today. So welcome.

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Siyue Lena Wang - UCLA Asia Pacific 

Center: And I want to give you a few,  

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a brief introduction about the GCP program.

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Siyue Lena Wang - UCLA Asia Pacific Center: 

Can we go to the next slide, please?

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Siyue Lena Wang - UCLA Asia Pacific Center: 

The global Chinese philanthropy research  

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and training program is led by 

the Ucla Asia Pacific Center,  

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and we receive generous support 

from Cyrus Tang Foundation.

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Siyue Lena Wang - UCLA Asia Pacific Center: And 

the program really aims to integrate networking  

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building, research and training to bridge 

intellectual inquiry and professional practice  

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in the field of Gcp. We have dedicated our program 

to fostering passion, interest and volunteerism,  

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stimulating innovative research ideas 

and sharing best practices in Gcp  

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through training programs, lectures and symposium.

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Siyue Lena Wang - UCLA Asia Pacific 

Center: And the program really focus  

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on 3 includes 3 components. The 1st 

one we maintain and expand our Gcp  

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network. I think many of you actually know 

about this lecture through the Gcp network  

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Listserv so welcome and thanks 

for continuing engaging with us.

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Siyue Lena Wang - UCLA Asia Pacific Center: and 

we also work alongside with our institutional  

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partners, who really help us sustain and expand 

the connection in Asia, but also globally.

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Siyue Lena Wang - UCLA Asia Pacific 

Center: The second part is, we organize  

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the public lecture series, and also the 

by Biannual international symposium. So

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Siyue Lena Wang - UCLA Asia 

Pacific Center: last year,

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Siyue Lena Wang - UCLA Asia Pacific Center: 

yeah, I think no. Actually, yeah. The year 2023,  

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the end of 2023, we organize a symposium 

at Jinan University, and this upcoming  

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spring. We'll have another symposium on 

Gcp. Hosted by the Zhejiang University.

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Siyue Lena Wang - UCLA Asia Pacific Center: 

Lastly, we also want to foster volunteerism and  

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provide professional trainings and trainings 

on research interests on Gcp. So we have a  

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training program affiliate with the initiative 

where we provide half-day training workshops  

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and also public lectures throughout the year. So 

welcome our student participants for the program.

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Siyue Lena Wang - UCLA Asia Pacific Center: 

Lastly, I want to thank Cyrus Tang foundation  

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for their generous support, and our staff, 

including Center administrator, Jeannie Chen,  

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deputy director, Aaron Miller, and 

our graduate student researcher,  

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Jerry Sun and undergraduate assistant, Joyce 

Lin for their hard work behind the scenes.

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Siyue Lena Wang - UCLA Asia Pacific Center: and 

it's now my pleasure to introduce today's speaker,  

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our Dr. Anthony Spiers, Dr. Spiers, is 

associate professor at the Center for  

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contemporary Chinese study and deputy Associate 

Dean International China in the Faculty of Arts,  

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and at the University of Melbourne. He 

was previously associate professor in  

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the Department of Sociology and 

the Director of the Center for  

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Social Innovation Studies at the 

Chinese University of Hong Kong.

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Siyue Lena Wang - UCLA Asia Pacific Center: 

His research focuses on the development of

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Siyue Lena Wang - UCLA Asia Pacific Center: 

civil society in China, including philanthropy,  

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governmental regulations, and the cultures of a 

nonprofit organization which is really relevant.  

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And I know many of you will be interested 

in today's topic. He has published widely  

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in leading journals, including the American 

Journal of Sociology, top Tier journals,  

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the China Journal, the China Quarterly and 

Nonprofit and Voluntary Sector Quarterly.

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Siyue Lena Wang - UCLA Asia 

Pacific Center: Dr. Spire is  

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also the author of global civil society 

and China, and also everyday democracy.

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Siyue Lena Wang - UCLA Asia 

Pacific Center: civil society,  

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youth, and the struggle against 

authoritarian culture in China.

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Siyue Lena Wang - UCLA Asia Pacific Center: 

which is published pretty recent last year.  

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He is a graduate of Occidental 

College, actually in California,  

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and he has 3 master degrees, and he got 

his PhD in sociology from Yale University.

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Siyue Lena Wang - UCLA Asia Pacific 

Center: So in this lecture he will  

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present on global civil society and 

China challenges and perspectives.

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Siyue Lena Wang - UCLA Asia Pacific Center: 

So Dr. Spires the floor is yours and welcome.

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Anthony Spires: Thank you, Lena so much for 

that very generous introduction. I appreciate  

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it. Thank you all so much for joining us 

today. I recognize a few of the names in  

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the attendees list and a lot of new folks. 

So I'm happy to share with you what I can,  

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based on the work that I've done 

over the roughly past 20 years.

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Anthony Spires: let me let me get my slides going.

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Anthony Spires: See if this 

works hopefully, this works.

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Anthony Spires: So

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Anthony Spires: I'm probably too ambitious 

today. And what I want to talk to you about,  

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so I probably will push us right up against the 

time where we have very little time left for Q&A.  

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But I'll try to watch myself, and I ask Lena or 

Jeannie, or others to stop me if I go on too long.

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Anthony Spires: But this is a book that I 

published last year. It's a short book with  

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Cambridge University Press, and it's simply 

titled global civil society in China. What  

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I want to do today is talk about some of the 

content in the book, but also provide a bit,  

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maybe broader background for thinking about global 

civil society, its interactions and impacts on  

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China, and also thinking about prospects. So 

looking at the future where things are today,  

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and then where things are going which I think 

is a much more difficult thing to talk about.

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Anthony Spires: With all the changes in the 

world, the changes in the Us. Where many of  

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you are sitting, and the changes around us 

in this region here, where I am in Australia,  

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as well, predicting the future is impossible, 

but I think it's important to think about what  

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the future might hold. So I do want to talk 

about that a little bit towards the end.

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Anthony Spires: So let me move forward if 

I can. I hope everyone can see this. Okay,  

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what is global civil society?

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Anthony Spires: So

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Anthony Spires: I think in the broader literature 

and global civil society is is understood as 2  

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different sorts of things maybe related. But one 

is organizations. So international Ngos operating  

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programs making grants around the world, also 

included in that organizational kind of world  

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are pure grant makers, philanthropic 

foundations that are simply donors,  

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simply donors. I would say, who don't actually run 

programs on the ground. But who give away money.

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Anthony Spires: I realize a lot of you are coming 

from different backgrounds. So for some of you,  

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this may be ways too simple for some of you. It 

may be the 1st time you've heard it articulated  

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this way. So again I encourage you to raise 

questions in the chat, and the Q&A. If you  

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need to, if you like to. I would also say that 

the Gcs. If I can use that short term has been  

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conceptualized as a normative project by many 

of the people who've talked about it in the past

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Anthony Spires: as international Ngos as carriers 

of cosmopolitan values, including things like  

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democracy and human rights. Mary Kaldor, in 

the Uk. Has written a book talking about global  

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civil society as an antidote to war. So you can 

take from this. There's a lot of very idealistic

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Anthony Spires: visions of what global civil 

society is and what it can be and what it can  

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do. And I'm not so much a cynic. But I think these 

are insincere. I think this is, you know, these  

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these kind of goals. The values they represent 

are aspirational. And I think you know, it's it's  

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characteristics of what we can see when we look at 

many international Ngos around the world, anyway.

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Anthony Spires: So a little bit of background to 

Ingos and global society in China. Some of you  

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may know, after 1949, when the Communist 

party took power, most foreign supported  

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charities in China were shuttered, they were 

closed down. Essentially. The message was that  

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the party is here to help. The party is, 

you know, of the people for the people.

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Anthony Spires: and so most foreign charities, of 

which there were many, many Chinese universities,  

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many of Chinese colleges, many hospitals in 

China, medical schools were founded and funded  

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by overseas Chinese, and by foreigners, 

sometimes with religious affiliation,  

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sometimes not, but those were all shut 

down for the most part. After 1949.

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Anthony Spires: I'll skip ahead in history 

really quickly. 30 years or so after Mao Zedong  

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died in 1976, and Deng Xiaoping opened 

up China to the outside world. In 1979,  

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a lot of foreign philanthropic foundations 

and Ingos were invited into China by the  

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State itself. So at the highest levels of 

Chinese Government. There were invitations  

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to many different organizations in the 1980s 

to come in and establish an office in China.

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Anthony Spires: to assist in 

China's opening up to the world

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Anthony Spires: in many different realms, so 

that includes education. So my home discipline,  

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sociology was reestablished 

during this period of time,  

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and supported by organizations 

like the Ford Foundation and others

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Anthony Spires: as well as you know other 

things about environmental disaster,  

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relief, support, poverty, alleviation,  

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all the sorts of things that came to be on the 

Chinese kind of agenda, the official agenda.

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Anthony Spires: as well as integrating into the 

global economy and the development of different  

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kinds of laws and regulations that would help 

facilitate that. So I've given you a couple of  

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4 different examples of organizations that 

have been active in China for a very long  

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time that came in sometime after the 1979 

period. So the Ford foundation from the Us

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Anthony Spires: has as its mission. You 

can find this online. This is a slightly  

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older version of the mission statement, I think, 

but the ideas are still there to reduce poverty  

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and injustice to strengthen democratic 

values, promote international cooperation

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Anthony Spires: and advance human achievement. 

So in this one line from the Ford Foundation,  

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I think it's not representative of every ingo,  

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but I think it does touch on issues 

that many different INGOs have

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Anthony Spires: made a focus of their work 

and core to their own values. So injustice,  

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democracy, international cooperation, nice 

thing, advancing human achievement which can be  

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understood many ways. Education, for example, the 

Asia Foundation, which is also based in the Us.

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Anthony Spires: Has had a focus on good 

governance on women's empowerment, gender  

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equality. So again, those kinds of cosmopolitan 

values and kinds of things that we think about  

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when we think about progressing democracy 

and human rights globally right. This is  

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what the Asia foundation is looking to 

do. Oxfam from the Uk seeks to ensure  

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the representation of vulnerable people 

affected by marginalization and injustice

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Anthony Spires: and save the children, 

Uk, giving a powerful voice to children  

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and championing their rights. So 

you can see in just these short,  

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brief statements by these 4 different, 

rather large Ingos. There's a big focus on

00:14:32.824 --> 00:14:39.000

Anthony Spires: particular kinds of values and 

governance principles, right? So inclusivity,  

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gender equality, rights. As a few of 

those key touchstone words, I would say.

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Anthony Spires: but I will go back and just say 

that these are not unique to global civil society.  

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For sure, after the party was established before 

the party was, you know, had taken power in 1949,

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Anthony Spires: even an early period of 

Republican China, things like democracy,  

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rights, liberty, equality. These were, you 

know, catchphrases of the intelligentsia  

00:15:08.600 --> 00:15:11.960

leading up to the Republican revolution 

overthrowing the Qing dynasty. So these  

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ideas have been floating around China for 

a very, very long time in today in China,  

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you can see, as I showed you this picture of a 

street sign in Kunming that I took in 2014 core  

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Socialist values in today's China include these 

sorts of things. So these would not be unknown.

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Anthony Spires: They're not unfamiliar, 

I would say, within the Chinese context,  

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although some people may be skeptical of 

what these things actually mean and how  

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they're taught in Chinese schools which they 

are taught now from kindergarten on up, and  

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how people interpret what they mean. My impression 

is that although they are widely taught in school.

00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:55.040

Anthony Spires: the teaching is often down 

to memorization. So children have to learn  

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to repeat these things, and there 

are little songs that kindergartners  

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can sing now they're quite cute. But 

you know these are big words even for  

00:16:01.680 --> 00:16:06.280

grownups. These are really big words. 

So for kids growing up in China today.

00:16:06.280 --> 00:16:09.600

Anthony Spires: you know, they'll be 

hearing these sorts of things a lot.  

00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:14.400

But what they mean and what they mean 

in practice are different questions.

00:16:14.400 --> 00:16:22.800

Anthony Spires: I think we can't talk about global 

civil society unless we talk about grassroots,  

00:16:22.800 --> 00:16:28.000

domestic civil society within China. So 

I want to focus quickly, briefly, maybe,  

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on grassroots Ngos, and very explicitly, 

government fears of grassroots, Ngos,  

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which I've studied grassroots Ngos 

in China for a couple of decades  

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now. And I think it's a part of the story, an 

important part of the story for understanding

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Anthony Spires: global philanthropy to China,  

00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:48.240

and also the Chinese Government's efforts 

to shape civil society internally and also  

00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:51.944

shape the activities of Chinese 

groups when they move overseas.

00:16:51.944 --> 00:16:56.680

Anthony Spires: So there's clearly a strand 

within the party a group within the party,  

00:16:56.680 --> 00:17:02.400

a way of thinking within the party that says that 

grassroots Ngos, are something dangerous that we  

00:17:02.400 --> 00:17:08.600

need to be aware of. We need to take control 

of. There's a fear that grassroots groups are  

00:17:08.600 --> 00:17:15.000

anti-government anti-party, or maybe forming an 

alternative party to the Communist Party itself.

00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:18.200

Anthony Spires: and I would just briefly state 

here that you know again, in 20 years of working  

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with grassroots Ngos, and doing research in this 

area. I don't think there is any alternative  

00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:29.920

party organization in existence in China today. I 

don't think there's any group identifiable group.  

00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:37.960

At least that is cohesive enough to challenge 

the party, but that fear remains quite strong.

00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:44.520

Anthony Spires: There's a fear that Ngos in 

China may link up, and this is an understandable  

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fear. The party itself, when it was trying to get 

established and overthrow the well and win power,  

00:17:51.320 --> 00:17:56.120

I should say, in the 1940s, and prior to 

that the party itself operated in ways  

00:17:56.120 --> 00:18:01.824

that different groups of activists or Communist 

party cells around the country would link up.

00:18:01.824 --> 00:18:04.440

Anthony Spires: They're very aware of their own 

history of doing that. And they're concerned that  

00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:10.520

Ngos can do this. What this means in practice 

is that in real life is that Ngos today in  

00:18:10.520 --> 00:18:16.360

China have a hard time getting together inside 

China. There's been lots of events that I've  

00:18:16.360 --> 00:18:20.480

been sort of planning to go to, or others have 

told me about, that. They were going to happen

00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:23.400

Anthony Spires: that in the end got canceled 

because the Government stepped in and said, No,  

00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:26.960

no, no, you can't meet in this hotel, 

or you can't meet in this university,  

00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:28.920

or you cannot do this, or you cannot do that,  

00:18:28.920 --> 00:18:36.560

or their travel arrangements were canceled 

for them. So it remains a concern and a fear.

00:18:36.560 --> 00:18:39.184

Anthony Spires: There's also, I think, which is

00:18:39.184 --> 00:18:43.800

Anthony Spires: pretty relevant for today's topic, 

the fear that grassroots Ngos may actually simply  

00:18:43.800 --> 00:18:49.240

be covers for foreign organizations, that 

they're acting as foreign agents for the CIA  

00:18:49.240 --> 00:18:55.120

in the Us. Or that foreign foundations like 

the Ford Foundation or others, may actually  

00:18:55.120 --> 00:19:02.520

just be working to promote color revolutions, 

which is the narrative that's used to explain  

00:19:02.520 --> 00:19:07.760

what happened in Ukraine, also about 20 years 

ago in Georgia, Kyrgyzstan, a few other places

00:19:07.760 --> 00:19:13.880

Anthony Spires: in Eastern Central 

Europe, and on the border of China,  

00:19:13.880 --> 00:19:17.880

so I won't go into the background of all this. 

I'm happy to talk about it if it's not clear.  

00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:21.800

But I just want to raise that and say, look that 

the government is concerned about grassroots Ngos,  

00:19:21.800 --> 00:19:25.960

and what they can do in grassroots, 

civil society, and that is relevant. For

00:19:25.960 --> 00:19:29.600

Anthony Spires: for Ingo's in ways that 

will become more obvious in a minute.  

00:19:29.600 --> 00:19:32.280

But before I talk about that, I just want to say,  

00:19:32.280 --> 00:19:36.000

I want to flag some data. This is not data 

that I collected. This is Mary Kaldor,  

00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:42.384

and others that collected this data. Again, around 

2,003. I think most of the data was collected.

00:19:42.384 --> 00:19:47.640

Anthony Spires: But I just share this to show 

you how China was then. And I would argue still,  

00:19:47.640 --> 00:19:54.880

now largely is on the outskirts of global civil 

society. Although economically starting in the  

00:19:54.880 --> 00:19:58.640

early 2000, China is moving to the center very, 

very rapidly, the center of the global economy.

00:19:59.480 --> 00:20:02.920

Anthony Spires: When it comes to global 

civil society quite on the outskirts. So  

00:20:02.920 --> 00:20:07.720

you see this ingo memberships per 1 million 

population which allows us to compare across  

00:20:07.720 --> 00:20:13.624

countries. If the world average was 45.4 

higher than that in richer countries.

00:20:13.624 --> 00:20:20.040

Anthony Spires: 37.8 in middle income countries, 

and 17.7, China was the lowest of all this 1.9  

00:20:20.040 --> 00:20:24.320

memberships per 1 million of the population. 

This is a membership in, for example, Greenpeace,  

00:20:24.320 --> 00:20:28.280

you can go online, you can become a registered 

become a member of Greenpeace. And if you were  

00:20:28.280 --> 00:20:32.840

in China at the time when they're collecting this 

data with the way that they've they've conceived  

00:20:32.840 --> 00:20:40.864

it. If you were one individual that counts 

as one membership. But in this, in this world

00:20:40.864 --> 00:20:44.080

Anthony Spires: of Ingo memberships China is  

00:20:44.080 --> 00:20:48.000

definitely far at the periphery. 

I would say, not at the center

00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:52.280

Anthony Spires: which indicates, I think, 

to the extent to which China has been  

00:20:52.280 --> 00:20:56.800

fairly disengaged or fairly isolated 

from global civil society. For a very  

00:20:56.800 --> 00:21:03.280

long time. In other places in Africa 

and South America, parts of Southeast  

00:21:03.280 --> 00:21:09.160

Asia. Some places you'd find much higher 

numbers than 1.9 where China Falls here.

00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:14.360

Anthony Spires: Want to go back to this 

kind of concern that I mentioned earlier  

00:21:14.360 --> 00:21:20.560

the fears of grassroots Ngos, and the fears 

of foreign Ngos that are active in China,  

00:21:20.560 --> 00:21:24.840

and share with you a piece 

by Professor Zhao Liqing

00:21:24.840 --> 00:21:29.400

Anthony Spires: from again roughly 20 

years ago. But I think what he did at  

00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:33.840

the time he really captured the debate 

that was happening in China at the time,  

00:21:33.840 --> 00:21:39.240

and I would say the debate that has continued 

to some extent to today about whether it's  

00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:44.760

good or not to allow foreign Ngos into China 

to allow foreign organizations, whether they  

00:21:44.760 --> 00:21:49.720

be grant makers or ingo's operating programs 

to allow them to work inside mainland China.

00:21:50.840 --> 00:21:53.280

Anthony Spires: Zhao Liqing listed 

out several things he did. A. This  

00:21:53.280 --> 00:21:56.840

is published in the Study Times. I think it was

00:21:56.840 --> 00:21:58.680

Anthony Spires: he listed a number of different  

00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:04.344

things. Funding they bring in money. 

Obviously, that's a good thing, especially

00:22:04.344 --> 00:22:07.920

Anthony Spires: at that time when China didn't 

have so much money of its own experience,  

00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:11.440

information, personnel methods, how to 

do things so literally? How do you run  

00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:15.880

organizations? How do you deliver social 

services to people in need? How do you  

00:22:15.880 --> 00:22:21.344

think about reconstructing the education 

system to support internationalization?

00:22:21.344 --> 00:22:25.720

Anthony Spires: Right? These are all things 

that foreign Ngos had experience doing and  

00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:32.840

were sharing in China were doing in China just 

after China joined the Wto in 2,001 roughly,  

00:22:32.840 --> 00:22:37.280

social development, obviously a good thing, 

a counterpart to economic development.

00:22:37.280 --> 00:22:39.760

Anthony Spires: a new social system. I'm 

not quite sure what he meant by that. But  

00:22:39.760 --> 00:22:44.160

that's okay. And he also said that they're 

helping build public policy processes and  

00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:48.080

rule of law. And there are a great number 

of examples of this where this has happened,  

00:22:48.080 --> 00:22:52.680

and one I like to refer to, and some of you 

joining today have more experience with this  

00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:58.200

than I do on the ground experience, probably, 

of international Ngos, that, for example, had

00:22:58.200 --> 00:23:05.680

Anthony Spires: the round advise city governments 

on how to have a public consultation about  

00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:12.160

new laws, concerning the environment, or any 

matter, any number of different kind of matters,  

00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:17.920

but on the environment, for example, you know, 

in one particular city in northeastern China,  

00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:25.544

where Ingos were actually one Ngo 

was invited by the city government to

00:23:25.544 --> 00:23:30.240

Anthony Spires: tell them, I guess, sort of 

help them set up a kind of a Town Hall thing,  

00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:34.840

where people in the community could 

come together and discuss the draft  

00:23:34.840 --> 00:23:38.960

laws or the draft regulations 

that the city was proposing.

00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:43.920

Anthony Spires: and this was a fairly new thing 

at the time, and quite radical, I would say in  

00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:49.480

China it hasn't been extended. So if you look 

at the law and laws in China, the laws of the  

00:23:49.480 --> 00:23:55.440

law and legislation. How do you make laws? That 

kind of law? One of the results, I think of this  

00:23:55.440 --> 00:24:02.600

of this expansion of public policy processes 

and inputs is that now new laws in China.

00:24:02.600 --> 00:24:06.000

Anthony Spires: are, typically, 

they have to be posted online  

00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:11.400

one month in advance of for or for 

public consultation for 30 days. So

00:24:11.400 --> 00:24:17.400

Anthony Spires: a couple of the laws that I 

followed, like the law on the charity law and the  

00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:22.880

law on international Ngos or Overseas Ngos. They 

were both put online by the relevant government  

00:24:22.880 --> 00:24:28.360

agencies and invited, you know, invited people 

around the country and around the world to submit

00:24:28.360 --> 00:24:32.080

Anthony Spires: opinions or suggestions. 

For what could work? What could be a  

00:24:32.080 --> 00:24:35.280

problem with the law as it was drafted. 

So those are things that Zhao Li Qing,  

00:24:35.280 --> 00:24:41.400

and others around him saw as valuable, and 

they have had an impact in China for sure.

00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:48.600

Anthony Spires: He also recognized that national 

security is, there's a threat that Ngos can.  

00:24:48.600 --> 00:24:56.960

Foreign Ngos again, may bring to the country 

that they might cause political instability,  

00:24:56.960 --> 00:25:00.960

especially if they're trying to 

promote a color revolution. Like,  

00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:03.820

again, was the narrative in 

Eastern Europe and in Kyrgyzstan

00:25:03.820 --> 00:25:08.160

Anthony Spires: they might increase corruption 

because there's a lot of money flowing in. And I  

00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:12.640

have stories about that. I won't share them today. 

But I have heard stories of that. And I would say,  

00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:16.880

Yeah, that's a real problem. More money coming in, 

and who knows where the money's going? You know I  

00:25:16.880 --> 00:25:21.040

could point to different places where it shouldn't 

be going, and it seems to have landed there. So  

00:25:21.040 --> 00:25:25.160

he's aware of that stuff. And then foreign 

models pushed onto China, which I think is a

00:25:25.160 --> 00:25:30.240

Anthony Spires: a reasonable criticism. And 

that's also say it's a criticism that many  

00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:35.144

international Ngos have faced in many other 

parts of the world. So China is not unique

00:25:35.144 --> 00:25:40.320

Anthony Spires: in these concerns, probably, but 

I think Zhao Liqing kind of articulated them quite  

00:25:40.320 --> 00:25:45.720

well. At the end of this very short article. Where 

he does this he actually comes down, and saying  

00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:51.440

that on balance they're probably better for China 

than they are dangerous, for China on balance are  

00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:58.240

probably better than they are bad for China. So 

that was about 20 years ago. I'm not sure now

00:25:58.240 --> 00:26:03.440

Anthony Spires: where a similar analysis 

would come down, because in the last 20 years,  

00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:06.760

the last couple of decades there's 

been a clear shift towards looking  

00:26:06.760 --> 00:26:12.800

at them as more of a threat than as 

a as a bonus, as a helpful thing,  

00:26:12.800 --> 00:26:17.840

and I can articulate that a bit 

better later. If you're interested.

00:26:17.840 --> 00:26:18.720

Anthony Spires: I wanna

00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:23.280

Anthony Spires: focus on a 4 different Us 

based grantmakers. Just to give an example  

00:26:23.280 --> 00:26:28.440

of the kinds of things that that grant makers and 

things because we're talking about philanthropy  

00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:34.520

today. Grant makers looking at 

China. Do or have said they do.

00:26:34.520 --> 00:26:39.440

Anthony Spires: And I'll explain why. Maybe 

I'll go back to this slide just very briefly.

00:26:39.440 --> 00:26:42.960

Anthony Spires: When Zhao Liqing article came 

out I was already on the ground in China,  

00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:47.280

doing field work, and before I went to 

China I was based in the Us. At Yale,  

00:26:47.280 --> 00:26:53.000

and I had met with a number of foundations in 

the Us. And New York, Boston and Washington,  

00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:57.680

a couple of other places that were working in 

China, and I asked them, you know, what do you  

00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:03.224

do? Why do you do what you do, and virtually 

all of them said. You know we support kind of

00:27:03.224 --> 00:27:07.200

Anthony Spires: grassroots groups. We support 

civil society development. We support, you know,  

00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:10.880

human rights. Quietly we support these sorts 

of things. We support development of civil  

00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:16.120

society in China. And I thought, okay. 

So then I went to the ground in China,  

00:27:16.120 --> 00:27:19.240

spent a lot of time, and mostly 

in Guangdong in the South.

00:27:19.240 --> 00:27:23.120

Anthony Spires: talking with people meeting 

with different groups, and I had that in my  

00:27:23.120 --> 00:27:29.520

mind right. And to give an example of what I had 

in my mind. These are quotes from 4 different  

00:27:29.520 --> 00:27:33.600

groups. This is part of their mission statement 

or their vision for what they do. The national  

00:27:33.600 --> 00:27:40.424

endowment for democracy which is in a Us. Based 

Washington based Ngo not registered nonprofit

00:27:40.424 --> 00:27:43.520

Anthony Spires: in 2,003, which is 

just before I started talking to  

00:27:43.520 --> 00:27:47.680

people about these issues, the Ned said 

it concentrated its resources in Asia,  

00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:52.000

on organizations meaning civil society 

groups, grassroots, groups working to pry  

00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:57.304

open dictatorial systems and broaden rights and 

political space in semi-authoritarian countries.

00:27:57.304 --> 00:28:01.080

Anthony Spires: and Nad did not classify 

China as semi-authoritarian. It was a  

00:28:01.080 --> 00:28:06.704

full-fledged authoritarian country, or perhaps 

dictatorship in the the rhetoric of the time.

00:28:06.704 --> 00:28:11.600

Anthony Spires: the Asia Foundation in China. 

It said that it supports civil organizations and  

00:28:11.600 --> 00:28:15.000

government institutions to enhance popular 

empowerment while increasing government  

00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:19.960

accountability. So this is about human rights 

and democracy stuff. Right? It's very explicit.

00:28:19.960 --> 00:28:24.680

Anthony Spires: the State Department, has 

a Bureau of democracy, human rights sorry,  

00:28:24.680 --> 00:28:28.400

and this is a typo and labor. Says that they  

00:28:28.400 --> 00:28:32.080

consult and partner closely with the many 

and dedicated and capable Ngos working on  

00:28:32.080 --> 00:28:37.360

human rights and democracy right around the 

world. But obviously, particularly in China.

00:28:37.360 --> 00:28:40.440

Anthony Spires: The Ford Foundation says 

explicitly, our goals are to strengthen  

00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:44.080

democratic values, reduce poverty and 

justice, promote international cooperation,  

00:28:44.080 --> 00:28:48.240

advance human achievement. So there's a lot 

of rhetoric here that you can understand would  

00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:52.520

worry the Conservatives within the party 

who are worried about color revolutions,  

00:28:52.520 --> 00:28:56.320

or worried about foreign organizations trying to

00:28:56.320 --> 00:29:02.040

Anthony Spires: harm the rule of the party, or 

to bring down the party and overthrow the State,  

00:29:02.040 --> 00:29:07.480

which is an expression here a lot. And 

in official circles about this. And I  

00:29:07.480 --> 00:29:09.640

would read this sort of stuff. And I 

talk to people. And I thought, Wow,  

00:29:09.640 --> 00:29:12.760

they're very explicit about what they want 

to do. How are they allowed to operate in  

00:29:12.760 --> 00:29:16.944

China? Why aren't they allowed to operate in 

China? If this is what they say they're doing.

00:29:16.944 --> 00:29:18.960

Anthony Spires: It seems like you just 

need to go on the website. I mean,  

00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:22.280

you could access these websites from China 

at the time they weren't blocked. Some of  

00:29:22.280 --> 00:29:24.960

them are probably blocked now. They 

weren't blocked. So it's not like,  

00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:30.360

you know, people in Beijing didn't couldn't 

know what they said that they were doing.

00:29:30.360 --> 00:29:35.320

Anthony Spires: And so yeah, I went on the ground

00:29:35.320 --> 00:29:37.720

Anthony Spires: back up and say, I went on the 

ground, and what I found with the grassroots.  

00:29:37.720 --> 00:29:43.960

Ngos, for the most part, was that they had 

very little contact with foreign foundations.  

00:29:43.960 --> 00:29:50.480

They had very little, very little or no contact 

with these kinds of Grant makers. And so there  

00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:54.720

was a big contrast between what I'd heard 

in interviews in the Us. As a researcher,  

00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:58.840

as a doctoral researcher, and then, on 

the ground from civil society groups in  

00:29:58.840 --> 00:30:03.184

China itself. So I went to try to 

figure out why this was the case.

00:30:03.184 --> 00:30:06.680

Anthony Spires: and what I did 

was, I collected lots of data,  

00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:11.640

used data from the foundation center based 

in New York to look at private foundations  

00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:15.360

and the grantees in China. And I went 

through all the foundations that made  

00:30:15.360 --> 00:30:21.224

grants in China from 2,002 to 2,009 that are 

captured in that foundation center database.

00:30:21.224 --> 00:30:26.040

Anthony Spires: There were quite a lot, and 

I classified all the grantees. And so this is  

00:30:26.040 --> 00:30:29.400

the I don't need you to read. You don't need to 

feel like you need to read all this, but I would  

00:30:29.400 --> 00:30:35.680

just shoot to the top 2 lines. Academic and 

research institutions and government agencies

00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:42.200

Anthony Spires: got the lion's share of funding 

from foreign grantees from us based foundations  

00:30:42.200 --> 00:30:48.000

at the time at least 44% of the money they sent 

to China during that time of 200 million dollars  

00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:52.440

effectively went to Chinese universities. 

Essentially right. Another quarter of it went  

00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:57.920

to government agencies and another 16% went to 

GONGOs. And then maybe 5% went to grassroots Ngos.

00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:02.400

Anthony Spires: International, other 

international Ngos and others got a big  

00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:07.680

chunk of the money. But over that period 

of 8 years I think it is. You can see,  

00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:12.480

the total amount of money was almost half a 

billion Us. Dollars. That's a lot of money. So  

00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:16.880

to go back to Zhao Liqing's worry, worry about 

corruption. You can easily imagine where some  

00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:23.064

of that money would get siphoned off right. 

But the bulk of the money going to academic

00:31:23.064 --> 00:31:25.520

Anthony Spires: research institutions, 

government agencies and Gongos,  

00:31:25.520 --> 00:31:28.640

which are government organized Ngos or 

government controlled organizations.  

00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:32.200

This was very different than what 

I expected in that period of time.  

00:31:32.200 --> 00:31:37.760

Only 188 grants that I could identify 

were directly made to grassroots Ngos

00:31:37.760 --> 00:31:42.640

Anthony Spires: And so that was quite puzzling 

for me. This is another way of looking at the  

00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:46.760

same data. If you look at who got the most 

money during that period of time the PRC  

00:31:46.760 --> 00:31:51.520

Ministry of Health got the biggest chunk of it. 

I think that comes from the Gates Foundation,  

00:31:51.520 --> 00:31:54.400

who who gave a lot of money 

during that period of time.

00:31:54.400 --> 00:31:58.080

Anthony Spires: The Academy of Agricultural 

Sciences. So you see number 3, number 4, Tsinghua  

00:31:58.080 --> 00:32:02.960

University, Beijing University, Number 5, 

the Ministry of Education. Essentially these  

00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:07.480

are all academic government controlled 

universities and research centers or  

00:32:07.480 --> 00:32:12.280

government agencies themselves, except for 

Number 6, which is a bit of an outlier here.

00:32:12.280 --> 00:32:15.440

Anthony Spires: But the short story is 

that the vast majority of money is not  

00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:19.280

going to grassroots groups is actually going 

to the government itself or the government  

00:32:19.280 --> 00:32:23.400

controlled entities. So that in part, I 

think, explains why the governments did  

00:32:23.400 --> 00:32:27.840

allow them for so long to do what they 

were doing despite their own rhetoric.

00:32:27.840 --> 00:32:29.760

Anthony Spires: And if you look at 

where the money in China is going,  

00:32:29.760 --> 00:32:34.360

70% of it was going to grantees based in 

Beijing. Other places dropped, you know,  

00:32:34.360 --> 00:32:38.120

far down the list, and Number 5 was Guangdong. 

This is where I was doing most of my field work  

00:32:38.120 --> 00:32:45.840

as a Phd student getting 2.2% of it right? 

But again, a large, the biggest chunk of  

00:32:45.840 --> 00:32:50.360

that would not be going to grassroots groups, 

but to government controlled organizations.

00:32:50.360 --> 00:32:54.400

Anthony Spires: I think it's an 

important part of the story. And I  

00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:57.840

think it's important part of the history 

that sets us up to where we are today.

00:32:58.920 --> 00:33:03.360

Anthony Spires: I can talk more about that 

later. But I do want to just move forward  

00:33:03.360 --> 00:33:08.280

just in the interest of time and talk about the 

situation for civil society broadly in China,  

00:33:08.280 --> 00:33:11.920

since Xi. Jinping has come to power, and I don't 

think it's terribly controversial to say that  

00:33:11.920 --> 00:33:22.184

there's been a lot of repression of civil society 

since 2012, prior to 2,012, just to flag that

00:33:22.184 --> 00:33:27.240

Anthony Spires: prior to the 2,008 Olympics there 

were a number of organizations were shut down,  

00:33:27.240 --> 00:33:31.200

China Development brief, which was a Beijing 

based kind of Clearinghouse for information  

00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:37.680

about civil society was shut down, it reopened, 

but it was shut down prior to that Minjian,  

00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:43.880

which is a magazine that was published out 

of Zhongshan University in Guangzhou by some  

00:33:43.880 --> 00:33:51.144

scholars there. It was shut down, and Minjian was 

a really interesting magazine, because it included

00:33:51.144 --> 00:33:57.320

Anthony Spires: articles, interviews, and articles 

by and with grassroots, activists, Chinese  

00:33:57.320 --> 00:34:03.160

civil society actors, as well as you know, like 

migrant workers who come from other parts of China  

00:34:03.160 --> 00:34:11.080

to Guangdong, or to other parts of the country, 

it included interviews with people advocating for  

00:34:11.080 --> 00:34:19.544

the rights of blind people. It included reports on 

organizations working with people affected by HIV

00:34:19.544 --> 00:34:22.280

Anthony Spires: on environmental 

activists, environmental issues  

00:34:22.280 --> 00:34:27.720

in China. So it's really broad kind of 

social problems, focused kind of magazine.

00:34:27.720 --> 00:34:32.040

Anthony Spires: And that was shut down as 

as were a number of HIV Aids. Groups were  

00:34:32.040 --> 00:34:36.864

working in Henan at the time. I could talk 

more about why, but but the you know the

00:34:36.864 --> 00:34:39.384

Anthony Spires: the sentiment 

at the time from Beijing

00:34:39.384 --> 00:34:42.160

Anthony Spires: seem to be that, 

you know. 2,008. The Olympics are  

00:34:42.160 --> 00:34:45.880

going to be a fantastic opportunity for 

China to showcase itself to the world.

00:34:45.880 --> 00:34:49.360

Anthony Spires: and it was, and they 

expected millions of people to come.  

00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:51.160

I don't know how many people 

came, but let's say a million,  

00:34:51.160 --> 00:34:55.320

maybe 2 million. I don't know. Maybe more come to 

China. They're expecting people to come to China,  

00:34:55.320 --> 00:35:00.080

and prior to the Olympics. They also announced 

that they would allow foreign journalists to  

00:35:00.080 --> 00:35:05.080

travel anywhere in China and interview people 

without constraint, right without restrictions,  

00:35:05.080 --> 00:35:09.640

which was very different from the norm at the 

time where foreign journalists had to apply  

00:35:09.640 --> 00:35:15.640

to go anywhere and get permission, and that 

sort of thing, and often followed, of course.

00:35:15.640 --> 00:35:18.440

Anthony Spires: So the idea was there'd be 

lots of foreigners running around China.  

00:35:18.440 --> 00:35:21.760

We don't want to see, we don't want them to 

just see the bad things about China. We don't  

00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:26.360

want them to see all the bad things if we can 

avoid that right. So you shut down these kinds  

00:35:26.360 --> 00:35:33.024

of organizations and these kinds of magazines in 

a way, as to, you know, protect the image right

00:35:33.024 --> 00:35:34.000

Anthony Spires: understandable from the standpoint  

00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:37.840

of people in Beijing. But that 

is the impact on civil society

00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:40.240

Anthony Spires: leading up to Hong Kong's occupy  

00:35:40.240 --> 00:35:44.320

central movement and the 

umbrella movement in 2014.

00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:49.840

Anthony Spires: A few other things. The 

term civil society was banned in Media,  

00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:53.480

and now it's banned in academia as 

well. Essentially, from what all  

00:35:53.480 --> 00:35:58.560

my Chinese colleagues tell me there was a 

nationwide investigation of foreign Ngos,  

00:35:58.560 --> 00:36:04.240

including the groups that I mentioned earlier 

in June and July of 2014 so occupy Central  

00:36:04.240 --> 00:36:11.160

and the umbrella movement started later 

that late that summer, early in the fall.

00:36:11.160 --> 00:36:12.440

Anthony Spires: And

00:36:12.440 --> 00:36:17.040

Anthony Spires: There was introduction 

of a new Ingo law that required formal  

00:36:17.040 --> 00:36:23.320

registration which came a bit later. But these 

are all things that happened in the lead up to  

00:36:23.320 --> 00:36:30.560

that or right after 2014. So in 2015, a number 

of lawyer activists were detained and arrested.

00:36:30.560 --> 00:36:34.000

Anthony Spires: And there's other things 

that we could talk about that happened  

00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:38.320

before that. And since then, of course, 

but I think that the overall picture  

00:36:38.320 --> 00:36:41.960

is that it's become much more difficult 

for grassroots groups to work in China,  

00:36:41.960 --> 00:36:46.120

and I would argue a lot more difficult 

for foreign Ngos to work in China as well.

00:36:46.120 --> 00:36:51.840

Anthony Spires: so this is just a great photo 

that I grabbed online before it was taken off,  

00:36:51.840 --> 00:36:57.840

published by a local city government, 

showing some of its officials getting  

00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:03.040

ready to go out and do an investigation 

of civil society groups and asking them  

00:37:03.040 --> 00:37:06.600

about all of their contacts with foreigners, 

all their contacts with international Ngos,  

00:37:06.600 --> 00:37:10.600

with foreign foundations, whether they got 

any money, what kind of programs they'd run,  

00:37:10.600 --> 00:37:15.904

etc, etc. So leading up to occupy 

Central in 2014. I think every

00:37:15.904 --> 00:37:19.640

Anthony Spires: grassroots Ngo that I knew in 

China at the time when I when I thought to ask  

00:37:19.640 --> 00:37:25.520

them. They all said they'd been visited by some 

people like these, and maybe visited by 3 or 4  

00:37:25.520 --> 00:37:29.640

different agencies asking the same kinds of 

questions. You know. What are your contacts  

00:37:29.640 --> 00:37:32.920

with foreigners? What have you been doing with 

them? Show us your bank accounts. Some groups  

00:37:32.920 --> 00:37:40.480

had their bank accounts frozen. It was, you 

know, a real signal that the State was worried.

00:37:40.480 --> 00:37:43.840

Anthony Spires: About Ingos. And why 

is this relevant to Hong Kong? Well,  

00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:48.360

because the fear at the time, and perhaps 

still, the fear of the time was that Hong  

00:37:48.360 --> 00:37:52.040

Kong activism in Hong Kong would spill 

over into mainland China that protests  

00:37:52.040 --> 00:37:56.304

in Hong Kong would spill over into 

mainland China, that Hong Kong based

00:37:56.304 --> 00:38:02.160

Anthony Spires: international Ngos that were 

doing work in China, would bring problems  

00:38:02.160 --> 00:38:08.080

to mainland China. Right? So if we look at 

that border as a as an international border?

00:38:08.080 --> 00:38:14.160

Anthony Spires: And so what we ended up 

with as a result of all that in 2017,  

00:38:14.720 --> 00:38:23.200

this 2016 and 2017, there was an ingo law 

that was passed. And this is some work  

00:38:23.200 --> 00:38:26.920

that I did on the Ingo law. I can talk more 

about that. But essentially I went around,  

00:38:26.920 --> 00:38:31.520

talked to lots of different people when the Ingo 

law was 1st proposed doing interviews, doing focus  

00:38:31.520 --> 00:38:37.704

groups, trying to talk to as many people as I 

could, and doing an online survey as well about

00:38:37.704 --> 00:38:41.160

Anthony Spires: what the ingo 

law as it was drafted would mean.

00:38:41.160 --> 00:38:45.760

Anthony Spires: And then afterwards, you 

know, continue to do this so for Ingos,  

00:38:46.840 --> 00:38:50.560

how do they survive prior to the Ingo law? 

It's something I want to briefly touch on,  

00:38:50.560 --> 00:38:56.520

and I will say it's not so dissimilar in the ways 

that many grassroots Ngos survived, although the  

00:38:56.520 --> 00:39:03.360

political situation is not terribly friendly, or 

there's always risk involved. Many Ngos learned  

00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:09.040

that they need to develop trust relationship with 

relationships with local government officials.

00:39:09.040 --> 00:39:13.600

Anthony Spires: that they could work 

collaboratively with some central  

00:39:13.600 --> 00:39:18.920

government ministries, some provincial government 

or local government ministries as well. Of course  

00:39:18.920 --> 00:39:23.760

they brought money, as Zhao Liqing said, 

and they brought money resources skills.  

00:39:24.520 --> 00:39:30.160

They worked with Gongos. Some of them worked 

the grassroots Ngos and many of them avoided  

00:39:30.160 --> 00:39:36.280

explicitly criticizing China's human rights 

practices and its efforts towards democracy.

00:39:36.280 --> 00:39:41.144

Anthony Spires: So prior to the 

law, the Ministry of Public Security

00:39:41.144 --> 00:39:44.920

Anthony Spires: estimated there were about 

7,000 Ingos active in China. I never have  

00:39:44.920 --> 00:39:49.160

seen that many Ingos active in China. 

I'm not sure where they got the number,  

00:39:49.880 --> 00:39:56.544

but that's the estimate that was floated by 

that branch of the government at the time.

00:39:56.544 --> 00:40:02.680

Anthony Spires: And so the Ingo law itself. What 

the upshot of it was that it required a lot more  

00:40:02.680 --> 00:40:09.400

regulation. It requires still to the day a lot 

more regulation and control of international Ngos,  

00:40:09.400 --> 00:40:13.840

and what they're doing in China. There 

you have to have a supervisor agency to  

00:40:13.840 --> 00:40:17.200

establish a representative office 

just like grassroots Ngos used to,  

00:40:17.200 --> 00:40:19.920

and still do have to do for the most part.

00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:21.000

Anthony Spires: It does allow,  

00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:25.760

pre approved one off activities without 

registering in an office which some

00:40:25.760 --> 00:40:29.200

Anthony Spires: some ingo's have 

taken that option. Since then.

00:40:29.200 --> 00:40:33.840

Anthony Spires: importantly, the INGO Law covers 

Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Macau. Taiwan's not such  

00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:39.120

a concern. Macau is not a huge concern, but 

the biggest concern, I think politically,  

00:40:39.120 --> 00:40:46.320

has always been Hong Kong, because the proximity, 

the easy access to Guangdong and the flow of  

00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:53.280

people and information and money across the 

border has meant that many international Ngos  

00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:58.584

have based themselves in Hong Kong for a very 

long time and then do work in mainland China.

00:40:58.584 --> 00:41:03.680

Anthony Spires: And so the law is not called 

the the Foreign Ngo law. In Chinese it's  

00:41:03.680 --> 00:41:09.240

referred to as the Jingwai Ngo law, Jingwai 

means outside the borders of mainland China,  

00:41:09.240 --> 00:41:13.240

so that way it allows them to 

include Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Macau

00:41:13.240 --> 00:41:16.480

Anthony Spires: and as a signal,  

00:41:16.480 --> 00:41:21.264

it puts the Ingo's under the supervision 

of the Ministry of Public Security.

00:41:21.264 --> 00:41:26.040

Anthony Spires: and I think Mark Seidel, who 

gave a talk in the same lecture series at Ucla  

00:41:26.040 --> 00:41:33.160

a couple of years ago, has written an article 

where he talks about the securitization of  

00:41:33.160 --> 00:41:37.680

Ingo's and civil society in China, and 

pointing to the way the law does this.

00:41:37.680 --> 00:41:43.280

Anthony Spires: I generally agree with 

this assessment in that regard. The law  

00:41:43.280 --> 00:41:47.440

prohibits religious and political activities, 

it specifies punishment. If you break the law,  

00:41:47.440 --> 00:41:50.320

this is what's going to happen to 

you, and I will say the earliest  

00:41:50.320 --> 00:41:56.184

drafts of the law were very punitive. 

The earliest draft of the law that I saw

00:41:56.184 --> 00:41:59.680

Anthony Spires: I want to say, like 80% of it 

don't quote me on this, but roughly, you know,  

00:41:59.680 --> 00:42:03.640

a huge chunk of it, anyway, was about 

how you'll be punished if you break the  

00:42:03.640 --> 00:42:08.920

law. It wasn't actually establishing 

any kind of supportive mechanisms,  

00:42:08.920 --> 00:42:15.120

at least in the reading that I had of, and many 

other people had of it. It was quite a severe law

00:42:15.120 --> 00:42:21.760

Anthony Spires: by 2023. This is the last stats I 

have here only less than 700 Ngos had registered  

00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:27.480

offices, and this is again compared to the 

7,000 Ingo's that the Ministry of Public  

00:42:27.480 --> 00:42:33.400

Security had estimated were operating in 

China. So if the goal of the law was to  

00:42:33.400 --> 00:42:39.440

restrict the activities of international Ngos in 

China. I think it's been extremely successful.

00:42:39.440 --> 00:42:41.840

Anthony Spires: Okay, just 

if you look at these numbers.

00:42:41.840 --> 00:42:45.720

Anthony Spires: I've talked 

with a lot of foundation folks,  

00:42:45.720 --> 00:42:49.840

a lot of international Ngo folks 

in the past couple of years

00:42:49.840 --> 00:42:53.440

Anthony Spires: who are still trying to work 

in China, and it is very difficult for them  

00:42:53.440 --> 00:42:58.960

much more difficult than it was 5 or 10 years 

ago. And there's a lot of frustration yeah,  

00:42:58.960 --> 00:43:04.280

in the field as well, and a lot of doubt as to 

whether they should stay or whether they can stay.

00:43:04.280 --> 00:43:11.480

Anthony Spires: And I will say to shift gears 

and talk about a different aspect of global  

00:43:11.480 --> 00:43:16.240

civil society in China. I think the story is 

not simply about as I've really focused today  

00:43:16.240 --> 00:43:20.160

on the impacts on China, what's happening 

within China itself and some of China's  

00:43:20.160 --> 00:43:23.760

responses to that. The Government's 

responses, at least. But I think a big  

00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:30.224

part of the story which is only unfolding 

right now is what the future holds. And I.

00:43:30.224 --> 00:43:34.120

Anthony Spires: There's many pieces 

of this one thing I would point to  

00:43:34.120 --> 00:43:38.080

that. I'm interested in myself, and some 

colleagues of mine are as well. Of course,  

00:43:38.080 --> 00:43:43.280

the 1 million plus PRC students that 

are studying overseas every year now,  

00:43:43.280 --> 00:43:47.160

and the kind of activism that some 

of them are getting engaged in.

00:43:47.160 --> 00:43:49.880

Anthony Spires: it's not easily controlled.  

00:43:49.880 --> 00:43:54.160

Of course this diaspora activism is not 

something the State can easily control,  

00:43:54.160 --> 00:43:59.280

but it is subject to a lot of transnational 

repression and surveillance. These are some  

00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:07.240

flyers that appeared at my university here in 

Melbourne almost overnight a few years ago.

00:44:07.240 --> 00:44:11.200

Anthony Spires: after the Sitong Bridge incident,  

00:44:11.200 --> 00:44:16.880

where someone climbed on the bridge and 

held out a banner, calling for Xi. Jinping  

00:44:16.880 --> 00:44:21.944

to step down and and calling for the end 

to covid test and voting for dictatorship.

00:44:21.944 --> 00:44:25.920

Anthony Spires: claiming, you know, we want to 

be citizens, not slaves. This sort of stuff.

00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:32.960

Anthony Spires: And here are some others, 

you know, quoting the the that person on  

00:44:32.960 --> 00:44:37.080

the bridge. And there's a photograph of 

the banner that was up there at the time.

00:44:37.080 --> 00:44:42.320

Anthony Spires: This is a bridge in Beijing, 

and for those of you who were who were inside  

00:44:42.320 --> 00:44:45.640

mainland China at the time. Maybe you 

heard or didn't hear about this. If you  

00:44:45.640 --> 00:44:48.480

were outside of China at the time, you 

probably did hear about it if you were  

00:44:48.480 --> 00:44:54.664

paying attention to the international 

media and even to the Chinese kind of

00:44:54.664 --> 00:45:00.360

Anthony Spires: social media sphere. At the 

time this was quite visible. These are only  

00:45:00.360 --> 00:45:03.320

a few examples of the kinds of things 

that people are doing. And this is,  

00:45:03.320 --> 00:45:10.544

you know, the more radical end. Of course, right? 

There's also a lot of activism on in other areas

00:45:10.544 --> 00:45:13.040

Anthony Spires: that Chinese students have 

gotten involved in and Chinese young people  

00:45:13.040 --> 00:45:16.800

who've left China and as well as other 

people who've left China in recent years,  

00:45:16.800 --> 00:45:23.400

migrants to Australia, to the Uk, to the Us. 

To Canada, to other parts of Europe that have  

00:45:23.400 --> 00:45:27.160

somehow found themselves interested 

in different kinds of social issues.

00:45:27.160 --> 00:45:31.720

Anthony Spires: And are wondering 

what they can do about those issues.

00:45:31.720 --> 00:45:36.720

Anthony Spires: At the same time, within 

China. Since Xi Jinping came to power.

00:45:36.720 --> 00:45:40.480

Anthony Spires: part of the bri. 

The Belt Road initiative is not  

00:45:40.480 --> 00:45:44.960

just only going out economically, 

but also going out in terms of aid,  

00:45:44.960 --> 00:45:51.280

foreign aid and development assistance to 

other countries. Building goodwill for China.

00:45:51.280 --> 00:45:55.440

Anthony Spires: The Government has passed in 

the in less than 10 years. They passed about  

00:45:55.440 --> 00:46:02.424

12 a dozen national level different kinds 

of policies, to coordinate and facilitate

00:46:02.424 --> 00:46:05.000

Anthony Spires: Chinese foreign 

aid to go overseas. And this was  

00:46:05.000 --> 00:46:08.000

done with the Taxation Administration 

with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs,  

00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:10.880

the Ministry of Commerce, the 

Ministry of Civil Affairs.

00:46:10.880 --> 00:46:15.320

Anthony Spires: all the the important 

key Government agencies that need to  

00:46:15.320 --> 00:46:18.440

coordinate to work together 

to make sure that Chinese

00:46:18.440 --> 00:46:23.400

Anthony Spires: aid can go overseas 

and the Chinese donation. So now it's  

00:46:23.400 --> 00:46:27.080

legally possible to donate to an 

organization in China as a Chinese  

00:46:27.080 --> 00:46:32.440

person and expect that that money will go 

to help someone in Africa or to work on an  

00:46:32.440 --> 00:46:39.360

environmental project in Southeast Asia, 

or that will go to places of need right?  

00:46:39.360 --> 00:46:46.360

And you that did. That was not the legally the 

legal structures, for it weren't very developed

00:46:46.360 --> 00:46:50.000

Anthony Spires: 15 years ago before Xi 

Jinping became to office. But over the  

00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:53.080

last 10 years or so it's gotten 

a lot more complex and a lot more  

00:46:53.080 --> 00:46:56.960

sophisticated. And it's possible. Now 

there's a lot of funds have been set up  

00:46:56.960 --> 00:47:03.440

to support going out. So there's a South South 

Fund. There's a couple of other other agencies  

00:47:03.440 --> 00:47:09.000

that have been established by the Government to 

facilitate again the going out of Chinese Ngos

00:47:09.000 --> 00:47:12.880

Anthony Spires: and it provides political 

legitimacy for grassroots, groups who are looking  

00:47:12.880 --> 00:47:17.320

to expand abroad. Some groups have been working 

overseas. Already, even in the absence of these  

00:47:17.320 --> 00:47:22.104

kinds of things, some, some Chinese groups have 

been able to do this and want to, and have been.

00:47:22.104 --> 00:47:25.560

Anthony Spires: I think, making their 

contributions overseas. But who will  

00:47:25.560 --> 00:47:30.640

benefit the most from, I think, these kinds of 

policies? It's not quite clear grassroots groups,  

00:47:30.640 --> 00:47:35.360

I would say probably less so. But I think a lot 

of the money that's going to be collected and  

00:47:35.360 --> 00:47:40.840

that can flow now will go through. Gongos will 

go through government organized Ngos, you know.

00:47:40.840 --> 00:47:45.720

Anthony Spires: waving the Chinese 

flag and supporting policy goals  

00:47:45.720 --> 00:47:51.800

of the State. But perhaps also, you know, 

learning about conditions in other places,  

00:47:51.800 --> 00:47:57.200

and and bringing in what they learn 

from interactions with international  

00:47:57.200 --> 00:48:01.280

Ngos that work in other areas of the world 

as well. There's just a few examples here.

00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:04.840

Anthony Spires: I won't go into 

too much detail given the time.  

00:48:04.840 --> 00:48:06.960

But there's a group called 

the Peaceland Foundation,  

00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:12.360

which I think is interesting to look at people 

of Asia for climate solutions which is founded  

00:48:12.360 --> 00:48:18.344

and co-founded by Chinese people who left 

mainland China and went to the Philippines.

00:48:18.344 --> 00:48:20.160

Anthony Spires: And now they work. 

They're based in the Philippines,  

00:48:20.160 --> 00:48:24.200

and they do work in the region here, close 

to where I am. The Australian New Zealand  

00:48:24.200 --> 00:48:30.600

Rainbow Association advocates for queer 

rights and supports the queer Chinese  

00:48:30.600 --> 00:48:35.640

speaking community in Australia, which is 

very large. Again, remembering that we have  

00:48:35.640 --> 00:48:39.440

literally hundreds of thousands of Chinese 

students studying in Australia every year,  

00:48:39.440 --> 00:48:46.480

and some of them are queer groups like 

Antra are working to basically help them

00:48:46.480 --> 00:48:50.000

Anthony Spires: understand what it means to be 

queer living in Australia. So there's all kinds  

00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:55.080

of different ways in which activism is taking 

place outside the borders of mainland China,  

00:48:55.080 --> 00:49:01.640

and which that involves the State in some cases, 

and in some cases doesn't. It involves the people  

00:49:01.640 --> 00:49:07.080

themselves. All these things are happening. 

I think they all deserve our attention.

00:49:07.080 --> 00:49:10.480

Anthony Spires: And I would say 

that the the last thing that I

00:49:10.480 --> 00:49:17.280

Anthony Spires: I think it's unfolding at 

the moment in the Us. With Trump's new,  

00:49:17.280 --> 00:49:23.360

his administration's new Administration's 

policies, putting a pause on all foreign aid,  

00:49:23.360 --> 00:49:26.720

pulling the drug out from under Usaid 

and a number of other organizations  

00:49:27.280 --> 00:49:33.920

that have supported human rights. 

Democratization groups, overseas

00:49:33.920 --> 00:49:36.840

Anthony Spires: as well as many, 

you know, medical care, education,  

00:49:36.840 --> 00:49:40.880

other kinds of things overseas. I think it 

really does offer an opportunity for Chinese  

00:49:40.880 --> 00:49:48.640

organizations to step in. That's not necessarily 

a bad thing, because people in need are in need.

00:49:48.640 --> 00:49:50.760

Anthony Spires: But I think that you know

00:49:50.760 --> 00:49:56.640

Anthony Spires: where the Chinese moneys will go. 

Assuming that does start happening really soon  

00:49:57.760 --> 00:50:00.040

is kind of predictable. I think we could see it  

00:50:00.040 --> 00:50:05.659

going to basic education. We can see 

it going to healthcare in some cases

00:50:05.659 --> 00:50:07.840

Anthony Spires: that we should not expect 

that's going to go to supporting human  

00:50:07.840 --> 00:50:13.760

rights and democracy movements overseas. 

Like much of us money has done in the past  

00:50:13.760 --> 00:50:19.240

several decades. So that's a new thing to pay 

attention to, and I will stop there and say,  

00:50:19.240 --> 00:50:22.640

Thank you for your time. I invite any 

and all questions and comments. Happy  

00:50:22.640 --> 00:50:26.640

to have a conversation today or later 

on. If you need to do it that way.

00:50:26.640 --> 00:50:30.644

Anthony Spires: I'll stop sharing here as well.

00:50:30.644 --> 00:50:33.320

Jeannie Chen - Asia Pacific Center: 

Thank you so much. Dr. Spires, yeah,  

00:50:33.320 --> 00:50:38.164

a lot of food for thought, and and 

thank you for sharing your insights.

00:50:38.164 --> 00:50:41.400

Jeannie Chen - Asia Pacific Center: And as you 

were speaking. There's a lot of questions coming  

00:50:41.400 --> 00:50:49.320

in, so we'll cover them as many as we can. 

We have. One just came in. The 1st one is,  

00:50:49.320 --> 00:50:53.920

why are foreign charities only from the Us. Or Uk  

00:50:53.920 --> 00:51:00.704

instead of European countries or East 

Asian countries? For example, Japan.

00:51:00.704 --> 00:51:04.160

Anthony Spires: Yeah. So that's a really 

good question. Before I started launching  

00:51:04.160 --> 00:51:08.920

into sort of my second wave of research 

on on international Ngos in China actually  

00:51:08.920 --> 00:51:13.200

tried to do a desktop study to find out where 

people are working, where they're coming from,  

00:51:13.200 --> 00:51:21.040

and the top 3 bases for international Ngos 

working in China were the Us. The Uk and Hong Kong

00:51:21.040 --> 00:51:25.920

Anthony Spires: other European countries are 

active for sure. Some Japanese funds are also  

00:51:25.920 --> 00:51:30.280

have also been active in China, for sure. 

So they're there. But in terms of numbers,  

00:51:30.280 --> 00:51:34.584

I think they've always been smaller. Yeah.

00:51:34.584 --> 00:51:37.520

Anthony Spires: and also sorry to go 

back to the philanthropy aspect of this  

00:51:37.520 --> 00:51:44.760

as well. The Us. Has a much greater culture 

of philanthropy than many other countries do,  

00:51:44.760 --> 00:51:48.600

so there's a lot of private wealth 

in private foundations in the Us. If  

00:51:48.600 --> 00:51:54.160

money is coming from many European countries, 

typically it comes through kind of government,  

00:51:54.160 --> 00:51:58.640

government organized Ngos within within our 

government foundations some private foundations,  

00:51:58.640 --> 00:52:04.604

some corporate foundations. But in the Us. A 

lot of it's going to be private philanthropy.

00:52:04.604 --> 00:52:09.400

Jeannie Chen - Asia Pacific Center: Wonderful. 

Thank you. Yeah, we have a second question that  

00:52:09.400 --> 00:52:16.200

came in. So is there any evidence to show 

that the umbrella movement in Hong Kong is  

00:52:16.200 --> 00:52:23.904

connected with national investigation on 

Ingos, and are there any other reasons.

00:52:23.904 --> 00:52:29.120

Anthony Spires: Yeah. So the investigation 

at the time in 2014. The only evidence I  

00:52:29.120 --> 00:52:33.080

can give you is that people told 

me it was. Government people,  

00:52:33.080 --> 00:52:37.824

government officials in China, 

academics in China who were involved in

00:52:37.824 --> 00:52:41.320

Anthony Spires: in launching that investigation. 

They all said this, yes, this is what's happening.  

00:52:41.320 --> 00:52:45.640

And the civil society groups that had their doors 

knocked on and were asked about their connections  

00:52:45.640 --> 00:52:50.720

to international Ngos as well as international 

Ngos that I spoke with at the time everybody  

00:52:50.720 --> 00:52:54.360

was saying the same thing that this is because 

of what's happening. What's going to happen in  

00:52:54.360 --> 00:52:58.624

Hong Kong. Because the Hong Kong protests 

were not spontaneous. They were planned

00:52:58.624 --> 00:53:03.120

Anthony Spires: by my colleagues and others 

in Hong Kong. They were actually so. They were  

00:53:03.120 --> 00:53:08.240

planning them publicly. So it was a known thing 

that was going to happen. And so the you know,  

00:53:08.240 --> 00:53:16.758

Beijing's response to this actually was quite 

rational, probably from a policy standpoint. Yeah.

00:53:16.758 --> 00:53:18.324

Jeannie Chen - Asia Pacific 

Center: Yeah, thank you.

00:53:18.324 --> 00:53:21.000

Jeannie Chen - Asia Pacific Center: 

Yeah. And then a related question,  

00:53:21.000 --> 00:53:26.760

it's a little bit long. So I'll also put 

it in the chat for you. But 3rd question  

00:53:26.760 --> 00:53:32.720

is under the greater Bay Area Development scheme. 

On the one hand, the Government encouraged more  

00:53:32.720 --> 00:53:38.684

frequent communications or collaborations 

between mainland China and Hong Kong and Macau

00:53:38.684 --> 00:53:40.320

Jeannie Chen - Asia Pacific 

Center: by promulgating relevant  

00:53:40.320 --> 00:53:44.640

policies and organizing different 

activities. On the other hand,  

00:53:44.640 --> 00:53:51.084

the Government still relies on strict 

regulation or policies to manage Ingos.

00:53:51.084 --> 00:53:52.240

Jeannie Chen - Asia Pacific 

Center: how do you think of  

00:53:52.240 --> 00:53:56.440

this? And how could we balance the situation.

00:53:57.840 --> 00:54:00.400

Anthony Spires: Yeah, I I think.

00:54:00.400 --> 00:54:06.240

Anthony Spires: I think there's 2 aspects of 

this, right? So there's the political aspect which  

00:54:06.240 --> 00:54:11.520

I mentioned earlier about the party's fears of 

grassroots Ngos, and suspicions of foreign Ngos,  

00:54:12.720 --> 00:54:16.560

the political element within the party leadership 

itself, or within certain elements of the party.  

00:54:16.560 --> 00:54:19.720

And then there's the practical parts of it, 

you know. What do we need? Why do we need  

00:54:19.720 --> 00:54:24.560

foreigners to bring in their money? Why do we need 

foreigners to come in and do programs in China.

00:54:25.120 --> 00:54:32.120

Anthony Spires: Then there's a Pr 

element to this right. Xi. Jinping  

00:54:32.120 --> 00:54:36.640

went to. When the INGO law was being 

debated, Xi. Jinping visited the Us.  

00:54:36.640 --> 00:54:40.600

He went to Seattle and was hosted by the 

National Committee on Us. China Relations,  

00:54:40.600 --> 00:54:45.480

of which I'm a member at a dinner, and at 

that dinner, he said. We welcome foreign  

00:54:45.480 --> 00:54:50.584

Ngos to come into China. We welcome everybody 

to come in as long as they abide by the laws.

00:54:50.584 --> 00:54:52.920

Anthony Spires: Right? So this is the question,  

00:54:52.920 --> 00:54:56.440

what does it mean to abide by the 

laws, and what are you allowed to do  

00:54:56.440 --> 00:55:02.080

when you come in and you register? How do you 

operate within the Chinese legal structure?

00:55:02.080 --> 00:55:09.520

Anthony Spires: I think you know Mark Seidel 

again a couple of years ago. Here I watched  

00:55:09.520 --> 00:55:14.480

his recording before I joined today. And he 

was saying that you know China welcomes all  

00:55:14.480 --> 00:55:17.440

these groups. They want them to stay. 

They don't want them to leave. I'm not  

00:55:17.440 --> 00:55:21.280

quite sure that I would say the same thing 

may be true today. I think the message that  

00:55:21.280 --> 00:55:25.840

many Ngos are getting is that we're making 

it very difficult for you to work here,  

00:55:25.840 --> 00:55:30.224

and you make of that what you want 

to. Right? You're welcome to stay.

00:55:30.224 --> 00:55:31.760

Anthony Spires: But staying doesn't mean it's  

00:55:31.760 --> 00:55:36.064

going to be easy. So I think there's 

there's probably a debate happening.

00:55:36.064 --> 00:55:38.840

Anthony Spires: or some different 

points of view in in Beijing about  

00:55:38.840 --> 00:55:42.840

whether having these groups in China is 

is a good thing or a bad thing. Still,  

00:55:42.840 --> 00:55:47.960

that debate continues, although largely it's 

shifted towards. It's probably a bad thing.

00:55:47.960 --> 00:55:51.840

Anthony Spires: So yes, cooperation 

is important. Cooperation is nice, but

00:55:51.840 --> 00:55:56.360

Anthony Spires: only on our terms. Yeah, 

which is understandable. Again, you know,  

00:55:56.360 --> 00:56:01.164

many countries have similar kinds of approaches.

00:56:01.164 --> 00:56:01.204

Jeannie Chen - Asia Pacific Center: Hmm.

00:56:01.204 --> 00:56:04.880

Jeannie Chen - Asia Pacific Center: yeah. 

And another interesting question came in,  

00:56:04.880 --> 00:56:10.600

and I also put it in the chat for you, so 

you can have it in front of you. It says,  

00:56:10.600 --> 00:56:16.520

how have you done any research on the role of 

Chinese Ngos Internationally, I've heard of  

00:56:16.520 --> 00:56:24.804

some being accused of being shills for the Chinese 

government, and thus not quote unquote real Ngos

00:56:24.804 --> 00:56:31.480

Jeannie Chen - Asia Pacific Center: in the 

UN context. So to continue. This person has  

00:56:31.480 --> 00:56:37.720

also heard of Chinese green Ngos, getting pressure 

from the Chinese State to serve as agents of quote  

00:56:37.720 --> 00:56:44.744

unquote civil diplomacy, or Minjian waijiao, and 

welcome to share what you've seen in these areas.

00:56:44.744 --> 00:56:49.800

Anthony Spires: Yeah. Yeah. So I would say, 

I've heard the same sorts of things that  

00:56:50.480 --> 00:56:54.800

there's pressure on grassroots. Ngos, going 

out. Wave the Chinese flag and let people  

00:56:54.800 --> 00:57:00.984

know they're coming with the goodwill of China, 

and that's not necessarily what they want to do.

00:57:00.984 --> 00:57:05.200

Anthony Spires: But some of them will. My 

research in this is very undeveloped. I'd  

00:57:05.200 --> 00:57:09.760

say it's very anecdotal at the moment, so 

I can't speak to everybody's experiences.  

00:57:09.760 --> 00:57:14.400

But I will say that people I've talked 

with, who've worked previously at Gongos,  

00:57:14.400 --> 00:57:18.384

who have gone. Chinese people who've 

gone with government, ordered Ngos

00:57:18.384 --> 00:57:22.520

Anthony Spires: to Africa or to other 

places, often left those experiences  

00:57:22.520 --> 00:57:26.640

quite critical of what they had done 

and what they had seen, and wondering  

00:57:26.640 --> 00:57:29.760

kind of what they were doing. 

Having said that, I think

00:57:29.760 --> 00:57:35.280

Anthony Spires: Chinese Gongos overseas can do a 

lot of good, and maybe are doing a lot of good,  

00:57:35.280 --> 00:57:39.464

so I don't want to. I don't want to be too 

namby Pammy. On this. I think, you know, there's

00:57:39.464 --> 00:57:42.960

Anthony Spires: both things are possible. It's 

very possible that they can do great work. It's  

00:57:42.960 --> 00:57:48.760

also very possible that any grassroots Ngos, are 

doing this kind of they want to engage in. This  

00:57:48.760 --> 00:57:52.560

kind of work will come under a lot of pressure 

to toe a particular political line. But this  

00:57:52.560 --> 00:57:56.840

is an open area for research. I think it's really 

about the future. So going back to the prospects,  

00:57:56.840 --> 00:58:03.784

part of this top title that's up for all of you to 

go and explore, and I encourage people to get out.

00:58:03.784 --> 00:58:08.440

Anthony Spires: Go into the field, talk to 

people as much as you can. The pandemic made  

00:58:08.440 --> 00:58:11.360

it difficult to do that. I was hoping 

to do more of that several years ago,  

00:58:11.360 --> 00:58:15.280

and the pandemic put a stop 

to much of our travel plans.

00:58:15.280 --> 00:58:19.240

Anthony Spires: But I think that things 

are. Things are open again. And with again,  

00:58:19.240 --> 00:58:23.578

with this opportunity that that 

trump's new policies have introduced.

00:58:23.578 --> 00:58:28.400

Anthony Spires: Yeah, who knows? I think it's a 

good question. It's 1 of many questions to ask. If  

00:58:28.400 --> 00:58:35.804

you go into the field and you're interacting with 

grassroots Ngos, and and with gongors from China.

00:58:35.804 --> 00:58:40.440

Jeannie Chen - Asia Pacific Center: Yeah, I think 

we have time for one more question. So I'll go  

00:58:40.440 --> 00:58:46.760

ahead and put this in our chat. And I think this 

brings it back to focus. But the question asks,  

00:58:46.760 --> 00:58:51.520

when you did research in China, did you have 

a chance to talk to the ordinary people about  

00:58:51.520 --> 00:59:00.464

their views on Ingos. Do you know if there's a 

change in those views after the 2,017 Ingo law?

00:59:00.464 --> 00:59:03.640

Anthony Spires: Yeah, yeah, it's a good 

question. I don't know who ordinary people  

00:59:03.640 --> 00:59:09.880

are. I will say in China, I think there's too 

many of them. Of course I did. I mean I I would  

00:59:09.880 --> 00:59:14.960

chat to people about my work. You know, random 

people that I'd meet in different scenarios.

00:59:14.960 --> 00:59:22.760

Anthony Spires: and we talk about these sorts 

of things. Of course, I got a mixed picture from  

00:59:22.760 --> 00:59:27.440

those very, very anecdotal kind of conversations. 

Yeah, some people were very suspicious. Some  

00:59:27.440 --> 00:59:31.080

people thought it was a good thing that foreigners 

were helping China. They were very idealistic,  

00:59:31.080 --> 00:59:34.240

they thought, oh, this means the people of the 

world can all come together and be friends,  

00:59:34.240 --> 00:59:39.040

which is very lovely. But then other 

people were much more suspicious after  

00:59:39.040 --> 00:59:43.240

2017. I can't really speak to that again, 

because in part because of the pandemic

00:59:43.240 --> 00:59:48.320

Anthony Spires: cut off travel. In part, the 

situation has just changed in China a lot. But  

00:59:48.320 --> 00:59:52.400

but again, I think that actually is a great 

research topic for anybody who wants to do  

00:59:52.400 --> 00:59:58.200

a survey. A set of interviews, you know, find 

ordinary people. However, you define them, and

00:59:58.200 --> 01:00:01.000

Anthony Spires: and and pursue it 

because it does have implications  

01:00:01.000 --> 01:00:06.120

for the way people understand China's role 

in the world and the possibilities that are  

01:00:06.120 --> 01:00:12.244

out there for China and the outside world to 

interact. That's a really important question.

01:00:12.244 --> 01:00:15.440

Jeannie Chen - Asia Pacific Center: 

Great. Thank you so much. So we have like,  

01:00:15.440 --> 01:00:22.080

probably like 4 or 5 more questions pending. 

But of course, if you're willing, and some of  

01:00:22.080 --> 01:00:29.520

our audience members may reach out to you. Maybe 

follow up, or maybe engage in more discussion. So.

01:00:29.520 --> 01:00:31.004

Anthony Spires: Yeah, please, do, yeah.

01:00:31.004 --> 01:00:34.640

Jeannie Chen - Asia Pacific Center: Thank you 

so much. And so we've reached the end of our  

01:00:34.640 --> 01:00:42.920

presentation today. But we welcome everyone 

to follow the Asia Pacific Center. And also,  

01:00:42.920 --> 01:00:48.920

you know, engage with Dr. Spires work, and we 

really appreciate you for coming today. So.

01:00:48.920 --> 01:00:52.520

Anthony Spires: Thank you for the invitation. 

Thank you for the invitation. The opportunity.  

01:00:52.520 --> 01:00:55.920

I Gary, reach out. If you're interested, 

you want to talk about more. Be happy to.

01:00:55.920 --> 01:00:59.240

Jeannie Chen - Asia Pacific Center: Great. 

And thank you so much, Lena, for chairing  

01:00:59.240 --> 01:01:07.424

today's talk. So have a great morning evening 

afternoon, wherever you are. Thank you so much.

01:01:07.424 --> 01:01:09.960

Anthony Spires: Thank you 

all. Thank you, Lena, as well.